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AI and the Law

39 Essex Chambers

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In this series, 39 Essex Chambers’ barristers, Katherine Apps KC and David Mitchell interview each other and guests exploring the legal issues raised by artificial intelligence including what sort of legal regulation is needed, how AI will impact on the legal profession, discrimination challenges, data protection, intellectual property and ownership, contracting issues and the impact on legal education in the future. Guest include: Baroness Shami Chakrobarti CBE, former shadow Attorney Gener ...
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AI the Law & You

Mark Miller, Shannon Lietz, Joel MacMull

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A lawyer, a technologist and a layman walk into a bar and discuss a recent legal case filing against an AI company. These are not scripted. What you’ll hear are real conversations as we talk, argue, and cajole each other to think deeper about the legal aspects of using AI, and what people should be concerned about when using one of the platforms.
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From Joel MacMull: The French competition authority last week said the tech giant, Google, failed to negotiate fair licensing deals with media outlets and did not tell them it was using their articles to train its chatbot. And as a consequence, it fined Google about 270 million US dollars. The fine was in Euros, but that's roughly what we're dealin…
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In this episode Katherine Apps KC speaks with environmental law pioneer Stephen Tromans KC about similarities, differences and lessons which can be learned for AI from the development of environmental, nuclear, chemicals and contaminated land law. They touch on the balance between international and domestic legal toolmaking, the effectiveness, or o…
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In today’s episode, we talk about how Air Canada tried to defend itself in court by contending that the chatbot on its company site is its own entity and is separate from Air Canada. A lot of the “fun” in this case is the absurdity of the defense. However, it’s a good case for thought experiments, thinking about the near term future of AI and who u…
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In today's episode, we investigate a case featuring a deep fake of a George Carlin comedy routine. We're also adding a new host, the voice of AILAH, an AI engine who will be giving us real time responses to questions within the discussion. Shannon and I were intrigued by some of the ideas AILAH came up with, which moved our thoughts in a direction …
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You are listening to AI, the Law and You, a show where a lawyer, a layman, and a technologist discuss the current state of AI in court filings and the court's response to those filings. These are not scripted talking points. What you hear are real conversations between Joel MacMull (the lawyer), Shannon Lietz (the technologist), and Mark Miller (th…
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In today's episode, we examine the case of Steven Thaler trying to copyright protect a piece of artwork generated by his instructions to an AI creation engine. We'll start with Joel's overview of the case. The Thaler case is interesting for a couple of reasons. One is obviously that it deals with AI, but it is also an extension of existing legal pr…
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In today’s episode, we examine the case against Michael Cohen, former Trump legal advisor, whose own counsel was exposed in a New York Times article on December 29, 2023, for using ChatGPT, non-existence legal citations in a court filing. The interesting twist to the story is that Cohen, himself, provided those citations to his counsel. I’ll let la…
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In this episode Katherine Apps KC speaks with Jennie Thelen about the recent judgment of the First Tier Tribunal decision allowing Clearview AI’s appeal against the Information Commissioner’s fine for unlawful data processing for the development, marketing and use of AI software to “scrape” facial data from the internet and social media and for its…
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In this episode David Mitchell speaks with Barbora Bukovska from international freedom of expression organisation Article 19 about AI, freedom of expression and civil liberties. David and Barbora discuss the recent European Court of Human rights judgment on the use of AI facial recognition on the Moscow Metro in Nikolay Glukhin v Russia (applicatio…
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In this episode Katherine Apps KC speaks with Imogen Ireland, Senior Associate at global law firm, Hogan Lovells about AI and Intellectual Property law. Katherine and Imogen talk about who owns and creates AI generated material in copyright law and whether AI can create inventions that could be protected by patent law. They discuss how these issues…
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In this episode Patrick Brodie, Head of Employment, Engagement and Equality at law firm, RPC, discusses with Katherine Apps KC the issues raised by use of large language models (LLMs) such as ChatGPT in a law firm environment. Katherine and Patrick discuss what LLMS are, what firms need to think about when drafting AI policies, what LLMs could do i…
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In this episode Eimear McCann, Commercial Director at Trial view, discusses with Katherine Apps KC the uses of AI in commercial litigation software, both to mine large volumes of data and to generate answers, documents such as chronologies and help make commercial litigation more efficient. Eimear and Katherine also discuss the requirements of diff…
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In this episode Professor Catherine Barnard, Professor of EU and Employment Law at the University of Cambridge discusses with Katherine Apps KC how discrimination claims could be litigated in the context of the use of AI. Catherine discusses existing case law on algorithmic determinations and how the elements of a discrimination claim could be demo…
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In this episode Michihiro Nishi, a partner at Clifford Chance in Tokyo discusses with David Mitchell his early experience of AI working as a lawyer in Silicon valley. Michihiro goes on to consider some of the current legal issues surrounding generative AI in Japan, including the lack of regulation and copyright protection which make Japan a “machin…
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In this episode Baroness Shami Chakrabarti CBE, former director of Liberty and former Labour Attorney General 2016-2020, discusses with Katherine Apps KC the sorts of law she thinks is needed to regulate AI and what can be learned from other areas of law. She discusses the UK Government’s White Paper on AI, principle based regulation and how her vi…
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In this episode Stephanie Boyce, the former President of the Law Society of England and Wales, discusses with David Mitchell the ethical implications of generative AI upon the legal profession including the potential for unlawful bias in its application. On a practical note Stephanie considers how lawyers’ everyday practices might be affected by ge…
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In this episode 39 Essex Chambers CEO introduces the podcast series. Katherine Apps KC and David Mitchell talk about the issues they will be discussing with their guests about over this series. They also define what they mean by AI, types of AI and talk about how they have encountered AI in their practice areas: covering contractual disputes, procu…
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