Jamie Dew talks about why he came to New Orleans

Answering the Call

Joe Fontenot: All right. We are recording. Okay. Jamie Dew.

Jamie Dew: Yep.

Joe: You are the president of the seminary.

Jamie: Newly elected.

Joe: New Orleans Seminary.

Jamie: Two months ago.

Joe: That's right. We're glad you're here.

Jamie: Thank you.

Joe: Glad to have you on the podcast.

Jamie: Glad to be here.

Joe: I wanted to ask you some questions, namely around why you're here.

Jamie: Okay.

Joe: You, born and raised in North Carolina.

Jamie: Right.

Joe: You were with Southeastern for a long time.

Jamie: 19 years.

Joe: 19, wow. I didn't know it was 19 years.

Jamie: Yep, yep.

Joe: Yeah.

Jamie: As a student, then Ph.D. student, teacher, administrator. Yep.

Joe: Right. So well into that world, both Southeastern seminary but also just North Carolina. And then you came to New Orleans. In a lot of ways, Louisiana is a typical Southern state. In a lot of ways. Broad blanket there. But New Orleans, culturally, yeah, it's kind of like this island.

Jamie: Yeah.

Joe: Culturally. And so what are some of the things that have surprised you since you've been here?

Jamie: Oh, okay. Yeah. That's a great question. You're right, I was very surprised at how different the city of New Orleans is from the actual state.

Jamie: And you know, it's funny. Throughout the search process, the search committee occasionally in some of those meetings, they would reference that or they'd say something about it. I didn't think too much about it. I was like oh, they keep saying New Orleans is not the South. But I didn't believe them.

Joe: Everybody says their stuff's special.

Jamie: Yeah. That's right. So that's kind of the normal thing. And then you get here and you realize oh wait, they were serious about that. This is just not the South, in so many different ways. I mean it doesn't have ... it's a very culturally diverse city. It's a very European city. And that becomes obvious pretty quickly when you ride around. Especially when you eat the food, because it's fantastic.

Jamie: And everybody says oh, the food's amazing. And I thought yeah, okay, everybody says they got great barbecue and stuff like that. But my word. The food here's delicious. And so you do. You see the difference of this city than really anything else you're going to see in the South. And so people had said that kind of thing, I didn't really believe them. But getting here, I totally see that now.

Jamie: Because you've got racial diversity, you've got cultural diversity, you've got economic diversity, you've got religious diversity here. It really is a melting pot of everything. The good, the bad, the hard, the easy. There's fun things. There's challenging things. And I think it comes together to really create a very unique sort of concoction of culture that I really have never experienced in any other city.

Jamie: That really did surprise me, I'd have to say. And then I'd say ... I mention one other thing that surprised me. This is a very happy city. And that I totally didn't see coming. Not that I thought I was going to get down here and people were going to be sad or mad or anything. But I think it's easy for people, especially maybe the Southern Baptist Convention, they still tend to view the city with this post-Katrina lens. What they saw, very vividly-

Joe: Blight.

Jamie: In a sea of that brokenness ... yeah, was difficulty and strife and sorrow and struggle and all these things. And indeed, all that was real. All of that really did happen. But the city in so many different places has bounced back. And more importantly, it's pretty obvious that however difficult all that was, it didn't break the spirit of this city. Tara and I, we came down, it was for my last interview, some of my interviews were on different parts of the country. And some of my interviews were in different parts of this state.

Jamie: And then the last interview was here in the city of New Orleans. We came down about a day and a half before the actual interview. This last interview was set up to meet my ... for them to meet my wife. But it was also set up to give us an opportunity to see the city. And they wanted us to have some time well before the actual interview for she and I just to walk around the city and be in the city. And see it and eat the food and check the culture and everything.

Jamie: So the first morning, we got in late one night, first morning we got up it was breakfast time. We drove into the French Quarter, we went to the famous Café du Monde and we're sitting there eating our beignets and our café au laits. It's about 8:30 in the morning.

Jamie: And they were sitting outside under this awning, watching the French Quarter. And this guy walks up with a trombone and he just starts playing the blues. And next thing you know a saxophone and then the next thing you know a trumpet, and then somebody with a bass drum and then somebody with a snare drum.

Jamie: And the next thing you know, you've got this full band. Just sitting there playing. And they're having a fantastic time. Which was really cool. You certainly don't get that in Wake Forest, North Carolina, where we're from.

Jamie: And but what really struck is as this sort of random impromptu band struck up a concert for the people there, of course they were collecting money and stuff like that. That was fine. I actually gave them some money.

Joe: They make good money, by the way.

Jamie: They do. And rightly so. It's genuinely entertaining and joyful. But as they started to play, there were all these street workers that were responsible for cleaning the streets and stuff like that and city maintenance people, and they're walking down the street with their little broom and their sweeper.

Jamie: And they're sweeping up the cigarette butts that are on the street. And they're just dancing to the band and that impromptu struck up a concert there for us. And Tara and I, we looked at each other and we just thought wow. You never get anything like that in North Carolina. This is genuinely cool.

Jamie: And that was a typifying example of a city that we found to be a very happy, joyful city. That's really neat.

Joe: That's a great example. Because New Orleans is a city that's kind of like Las Vegas in a sense. People, they think of Las Vegas and they think of the strip. There's not much else you think about. But Las Vegas is a big place. It's got a lot of good things going for it that are very much nothing to do with the strip. And I think a lot of people, they think about New Orleans, they think about seedy Bourbon Street. Which was about two blocks from where you were. Parallel anyway.

Joe: And so then they also think about parades and then seedy parades. And the interesting thing is, my in-laws came down recently and we went to a parade in Metairie. Which is a suburb area and it's a very family-oriented thing and they're like yeah, we had a lot of fun and all this kind of stuff. And it's like yeah. There's only 10% of them you need to stay away from. 90% of them are actually normal.

Jamie: That's actually another surprise. Coming from a non-New Orleans background, you come into the city, Mardi Gras has the reputation I think throughout a lot of the South, and maybe our whole culture, of being the very very naughty thing that people do.

Joe: Exactly.

Jamie: You only do that if you're a certain kind of person. So your point, everybody here does Mardi Gras. And there's all sorts of family friendly ones. And so that's been a neat surprise as well.

Joe: Yeah. Well, that's interesting. What have been some of the biggest adjustments? I know you haven't been here for a long time. But I feel like it's also very still fresh.

Jamie: Yeah.

Joe: You know? And so what have been some of the biggest adjustments you've had to make?

Jamie: Well, some of them are I'd say professional and then some of them are cultural. So professionally I've never been a president.

Joe: I want to come back to that in a minute. Okay, yeah, yeah.

Jamie: I've never been a president and you learn that in some ways it's actually your call now and you have more authority to do what you feel like God's put in your heart to do. But you still have to lead in many of the same ways.

Jamie: So for example, at my previous job I had to ... if I wanted to pull off initiative X in my role as the dean of the college at Southeastern, I had to win the support of other vice presidents and things like that, to help get them to pull the rope with me on those tasks.

Jamie: Here I may not have to necessarily get anybody's approval in that way, but it would still ... it would be profoundly foolish of me to just lead with an iron fist and demand. You still have to win the support. Because even though maybe I have that authority vested in me, it still is going to function vastly better and create an environment with the ethos that I would want this place to have, if we're getting people to buy into it.

Jamie: And so that's new. There's always adjustments on that type of thing. Then I would say culturally two things. One has to do with the weather and one has to do with traffic.

Jamie: The weather here, everybody told us, and this kind of goes back to the surprise. Everybody's like dude, it's so stinking hot there. And I believed them and I was prepared, I was really really prepared to walk outside and melt. I actually have to say, in some ways I feel like North Carolina in the summertime is hotter. But it does not have the humidity. So for example you'd walk outside there in the heat and the scorching summers and the sun felt like it was genuinely cooking you in that moment and your body just starts pouring sweat as a result.

Jamie: Here you don't necessarily feel like that. But you feel like you walk outside and the air gives you a hug. Yeah.

Joe: That's the best euphemism for our humidity I've ever heard.

Jamie: It seeps into your clothing and it wraps itself around you. And you're damp all the time.

Joe: So come to New Orleans.

Jamie: Yeah. I'm a blue jeans kind of guy, I'm wearing blue jeans right now. And blue jeans are like wearing a wool blanket, as it turns out, down here in New Orleans. And so you don't want to do that, as often as you can. Traffic is ... oh. Gosh, I'm 42 years old, I've had my driver's license since I was 16. I've got a lot of driving experience. I feel like a brand new kid in the car again.

Joe: Yeah.

Jamie: Just the traffic. The traffic patterns are different. This whole median, or what is it, neutral ground?

Joe: The neutral ground.

Jamie: Space and turning left across those where you'll have actually not one but two stoplights. And sometimes you can run those stoplights, evidently, and sometimes you can't. And your light may have just turned green, but you really don't want to just take off. You need to look and actually make sure nobody's blazing through there.

Jamie: So I feel like I'm having to learn to drive again and I'm certainly questioning my blue jeans wardrobe that I tend to wear. And learning the ropes of what it means to be president.

Joe: You know, this is funny because New Orleans, sometimes people say it is America's third world city. And yeah, you're like eh, yeah, I could see that. That's right. It's got all the laws but it doesn't really have the behavior. And I think probably the best spin for that is this is the greatest place to come and learn to do missions. Because you step outside of a normal culture, in many ways. You're so close to it.

Joe: You drive 70 miles and you're in Baton Rouge, which is pretty normal in a lot of ways, city in the South. But it's the capital of our state. But in a lot of ways you're here, and it is just a very different cultural experience.

Jamie: That's right. And I think that ... look, I'm genuinely grateful for all six of our seminaries. We're doing fantastic work.

Joe: Absolutely.

Jamie: It's a joy to have six that are strong. And I think that the theological diversity between the seminaries, and then also the diversity in specializations and niches that we each have, is ... I think that's genuinely valuable to the body of Christ and to the Southern Baptist Convention.

Jamie: We need, with some 15 million Southern Baptists, we genuinely need six seminaries that have distinctions and differences. And I lament and grieve over the fact that often we fight over those things and we pit ourselves against these.

Jamie: I'm not saying necessarily seminaries do that. But those types of trends happen in our midst and I think it's a blessing to us that we really are so distinct. One thing that I think New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and Leavell College can do exceptionally well in theological education for Southern Baptists is we can give students a very unique cultural experience while they're doing theological education.

Jamie: If you're going to go, for example, to be a missionary in say Europe or Afghanistan or anything else, now granted I'm not saying our culture here is like Afghanistan. It's not. But the skillset and the tool set you've got to have to do ministry here, if you can learn that tool set here, you can then employ that in any context.

Jamie: And so I think that New Orleans gives a student the opportunity to ... a laboratory if you will, to constantly work on and thing through contextualization. Which is vital to the proclamation of the gospel. And I think that we have a real advantage there.

Joe: I definitely agree. I think NAMB agrees too. Because New Orleans is really not a big place. Yet it's still one of their send cities.

Jamie: That's right, that's right.

Joe: We have NAMB representatives here and they talk about some of the things, and it really is true.

Jamie: Yeah. And another thing within that. What I've said to students recently, look, the city in the context you have the laboratory itself, is remarkable for ministry preparation. But then also the faculty that we have here is really unique and distinct. The faculty here, you can say virtually every faculty member we have is knee deep involved in vocational ministry in local church context in this setting. And this is a setting where there's difficulty and challenge and you have to do contextualization.

Jamie: And if you can do ministry here, you can do it anywhere. And this faculty is doing that ministry here. And so therefore they have, I think, firsthand experience in a very unique way that I just don't know a lot of seminaries have that opportunity. And so where better, and who better from, to learn how to do ministry than right here at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and Leavell College.

Joe: Let me ask you a question.

Jamie: Okay.

Joe: You mentioned something earlier and I wanted to go back to this, because I thought it was an interesting point. A lot of times when God is calling us to something, it's not always something that we recognize or we've done before or we can even compare to something else. Right? So a lot of times part of what's going on inside of us is we are deciphering God's calling. Is he really calling me to this or do I just want this? You know, how does that look.

Joe: You have talked before about how God called you here. You've never been a president before, there's not really a lot of presidents of seminaries and this kind of thing, so the pool gets really small. You talk to people and kind of get a flavor of this. How did you know, really, that God was calling you here?

Jamie: I could talk for hours about this. I got overwhelmed and bombarded from every angle and vantage point that a human being could possibly be spoken to, in terms of confirmation.

Jamie: To start off with, I was not ... there were so many things about this that got my attention. And it got my attention in a way that, as it happened, I couldn't doubt that this was something that the Lord was doing.

Jamie: So for example, I personally did not want to be a president of a seminary. I wondered from time to time when people asked me if I ever had aspirations to be a president, maybe something like a college or university at some point one day. Because I was a dean of college, I loved college life. It's funny that I ever even thought that, though, because looking back on it I actually don't know anything about universities.

Jamie: So I don't know why, in my mind, I thought that would've been it. I know quite a bit about seminaries, though. But my passion was college and so I thought that. I saw ... oh, let's just be frank about it. The Southern Baptist Convention can be volatile a lot of times. There are often storms that are raging. And here I am taking the helm of a ship and sailing it into a storm.

Jamie: That did not sound appealing to me at all. And in fact it still doesn't sound appealing to me. And so this has forced me to my knees and my prayer life has never been as vibrant as it has been in the last eight months. But I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to pursue it. I had friends encourage me to quote on quote put my name in for it. I refused to do it. They pressed me on it, I kept on saying no, absolutely not, I have no desire to do it.

Jamie: And it had nothing to do with New Orleans itself that I didn't want to be here. It's just I didn't want to be a seminary president. And I wanted to stay right there in Wake Forest where I was. That's where my family is.

Joe: It's your home.

Jamie: That's right. It's 40 years. It's like home-home. I didn't move there and it become home. I mean that's where I grew up. And so I had no interest in doing it. And Bob Stewart on faculty here is the guy that was approaching me, saying, "Come on, man. Come on." And I was just like, "Bob, I'm not doing it. I can't do it."

Jamie: And he says, "Man, don't you feel like maybe you need to open your hands and see if that's what the Lord would do?" And I said, "Look, Bob. If God did something and made it clear to me that I'm supposed to do this, obviously I'd have to pray about this. But that's the only way I could do it."

Jamie: And he said, "Well, what would that look like? For you to think that this is God, not you." And I said, "Hmm. I don't know. Me putting my name in it and trying to get it." Look, if I had half of a spiritual life and I had gone that route, and it goes somewhere, I would have to wonder is this God or is this me. Did I do this or did he do this? And I said to him, "Listen. If I cannot pursue this, if God wants me to do this, he knows exactly where to find me. If the search committee knew who I was for some reason." Which they didn't at that time.

Jamie: And they thought that I was somebody that has to be pursued, then I would obviously have to pray through it. And so that was in November of 2018. Just a couple ... oh gosh, almost about 10 months ago now.

Jamie: And he said, "Okay." And we got up from the table and we left and November ended and I didn't hear anything. And December ended, I didn't hear anything. And January came, and by that point I'd heard it was something like January 8th was the deadline if you wanted to put your name in for consideration, if you wanted to do that. Put your name in and they might consider you or something.

Jamie: January 8th came and went, I didn't put my name in. I went on with my life. I completely forgot about New Orleans, aside from the fact that I was praying for the next president every time I would think about it.

Jamie: And on I think it was January 18th, 10 days after the date for submitting your stuff closed, I was preparing to go to England to defend the dissertation for that second degree I did. And I got an email from Frank Cox, the chair of the search committee.

Jamie: And he introduced himself and he said someone gave us your name as someone to consider.

Joe: Was it Bob?

Jamie: It was Bob. Yeah.

Joe: For our listeners, Bob's going to be on the podcast later in this season.

Jamie: He's a faculty member here. He was my sub reader on my dissertation 10 years ago. And we've gotten to be friends since then.

Jamie: Anyway. Frank emails me and I thought ... well, by that point they obviously had seen my resume and everything. And so sure enough, the committee had seen me and thought that I was someone they needed to talk to. I called Danny Aiken, who is my president that I served under there and a mentor to me, and I talked to Ryan Hutchinson. And I talked to Chuck Lawless and I talked to my pastor.

Jamie: And I talked to my dad. And all of them really pressed me and said ... my dad of course did not want me to go. But he even said, and this got my attention, he even said, "Jamie, you have to fill out that questionnaire." And I thought doggone it. And Chuck Lawless aid, "Jamie, you'll be being disobedient if you don't do it." So I said, "Okay. Well, I guess I'll fill out the questionnaire." And surely I'll fill it out and I'll ... they'll move on, I won't be the guy.

Jamie: Rewind a bit. In 2008, New Orleans actually, I don't want to say came after me, but came to me to talk to me about joining the faculty in 2008. And a long story short, it was not the moment in our life that we could move down. From a family perspective, it was not what it wanted to be. And I don't think she'd mind me telling you this. My wife was not crazy about moving down here, mostly because of moving away from family.

Joe: Almost nobody who comes from any of that area is crazy about coming. I've never met anybody who is. My wife's same thing. She comes from Tennessee, which is a little bit further, east Tennessee.

Jamie: And for her it was mostly family. Her family's there and everything. And so she did not want to do it. And looking back, I have no doubt in God's providence things turned out the way it was supposed to be. But let's just say since then I always have a fear that maybe my wife would not be open-handed with this. And when that ... I came home that afternoon and told her what had happened, and even she was like we have to see if this is what the Lord would have us do.

Jamie: And I'm like why is everybody saying this to me? And at first I was like me? I mean I'm not a president. I had not been the guy that was an SBC mover and shaker. That's not who I am. I just didn't have those connections and nobody knew who I was.

Jamie: In fact, I asked Frank Cox once. I said, "When this process started, did any of you even know who I was?" And he said, "Nope. We didn't." So anyway. I can keep telling the story, but bottom line is throughout the process I did fill out the questionnaire, I answered things in stone cold, honest, straight up fashion as I possibly could. I just knew that I would probably be off-putting to the committee and offensive.

Jamie: And I got a phone call a couple weeks later that I was in the top four and they wanted to talk to me. And I went into my first interview in Denver, is where we were. I went into that meeting looking for a way to get out, because I just assumed that they were looking for something that I'm not.

Jamie: And I had no interest in being anything other than what I felt like God made me to be and do. And I needed in that meeting to be stone cold honest with them about what I am and what I'm not. And I went in the meeting and the meeting took a drastic turn into candor and frankness immediately. And I was able to share here's who I am and here's who I'm not. And I'm not going to be the guy that's coming in here trying to strut New Orleans and suggest that we're better than everybody else.

Jamie: I just have no interest in doing those types of things. But I want very badly, wherever I sit, whether I stay as a dean of the college, end up as the president of New Orleans, or go somewhere else, no matter what job I perform all I want to do with my life is train up a generation of servants. People that will serve the broken and be faithful to Christ.

Jamie: And I began to talk about that. And I could tell something was happening in the room. But I didn't know if I was offending people or lighting a fire. I didn't know. By the end of the meeting I had a pretty clear sense that something just happened. And I don't know. I knew there were still four people in it at that moment. I was checking myself constantly to not be arrogant and think that it was mine, because I didn't necessarily think it was mine.

Jamie: But in the back of my mind, at the same time-

Joe: Something has shifted.

Jamie: Something had shifted. And that was March 20th, 2019. And I got on the plane the next morning early early, like a 5:30 flight to fly back to Wake Forest. And I sobbed and I wept the entire flight home because in the back of my mind I kind of had this sense that I was going to be forced to let go of my beloved college at Southeastern.

Jamie: I mean my heart and my soul was in that college. And it was impossible for me to imagine doing anything different. But there was this clear sense that the Lord was going to take that from me. And that's how I felt about it. This was mine, I loved it. And no, it's not yours, it's mine. And I'm going to give you something else and you're going to love it just as much.

Jamie: And I didn't ... I had a hard time believing that, on that flight back. And I sobbed and sobbed and I came home that day and I said to Tara, my wife, I said, "I just am afraid that I'm going to end up in a job God calls me to, granted, that I'll never love as much as this one. And a people that I'll never be able to love as much as I have them."

Jamie: And I don't know how else to explain it other than from that moment, March 21st, that morning when I sobbed all the way home, till the next month and a half as I continued through the interview process, the grieving of letting go of Southeastern lessened more and more every day. I still grieved, but less.

Jamie: And simultaneously, as I ceased grieving as much in degrees by every day, vision and desire began to take root in my heart for New Orleans. I don't know how else to say it other than God began to put this people in my heart and in my mind. And I could not sleep at night.

Jamie: My second interview, I showed up and Frank Cox picked me up that morning about 7:30 in the morning. He said, "How'd you sleep?" And I said, "Frank, I haven't slept in a month and a half." Because, I kid you not, every single night all I could dream about was New Orleans. Programs, degrees, people, graduates, recruits, fundraising, the whole gamut of it all. The Lord was just bombarding my heart and soul.

Jamie: And now I sit here and as much as I loved the college at Southeastern and my students, it's impossible for me to imagine being back there now. And it's impossible for me to imagine not being right here right now.

Joe: Had you ever been through anything like that before?

Jamie: Not like that. This calling was very distinct. But I would say ... so I've been a Christian for 24 years. Not the oldest in Christ by any stretch, but certainly got some street cred. And when you walk with Christ, the nice thing about getting older in Jesus is that your life, you get more reps with him, day after day after day. And you've had more chances. It's not that you get smarter or better yourself. But over time you just had the opportunity to see him be faithful, again and again and again and again.

Jamie: And it becomes, I think, easier in some ways, to believe that he just might do something here. And I had never had, in that 24 years, these are not everyday occurrences, right? These moments when God just grabs your heart and turns your head and your mind to something.

Joe: For sure.

Jamie: But I can point to four or five moments in those 24 years where I can say definitively God called me to it. I don't use that language of calling lightly. And I don't think we should. But I remember the night that I came to faith in Christ, June 16th, 1995. I knew that night, after coming out of the drugs and the alcohol and the womanizing and all that stuff and the brokenness and the arrests, I knew that he had just changed everything for me.

Jamie: And I was so grateful and so overwhelmed and so overcome by the love of Christ that I knew not only that night that I was home in Christ, but I also knew that I would spend the rest of my life serving him. Whatever that meant. I didn't understand callings, I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know that you could make a career out of being a preacher. I didn't know any of those things.

Jamie: So I didn't know what that meant or looked like, but I knew I would spend the rest of my life serving Christ. And the Lord, for about eight months, just confirmed and confirmed and confirmed. Because I wanted to go in the military. I wanted to fly jets, that's what I wanted to do. I have vertigo, I could never fly jets. I'd pass out up there when I was doing turns.

Joe: We have air shows here so you can go watch.

Jamie: I know that God, knew that God, was calling me. I knew again years later when I went to go be the pastor of Stony Hill Baptist Church in 2004, in Wake Forest, North Carolina. Right at the beginning of my Ph.D. program there.

Jamie: Very clear. I had a sense, the morning I handed in my resume. A friend of mine asked me, it was my eye doctor, my buddy Jay. He asked me for my resume and a tape. I dropped it off at his office, drove out to the church, and I drove up in the gravel parking lot of that church.

Jamie: And I knew they had other people they were going to look at and interview. I knew that. And they were good candidates. It's not that I thought I was better. But I knew God had called me to the pastor of that church, and I pastored there for eight and a half years. I knew the day that I was asked to be the dean of the college at Southeastern that God was calling me to do that. And I know now, with everything in me, that God has called me to be here to do this.

Jamie: And it does not make sense to me, in a lot of ways, because I'm probably very atypical as a president in lots and lots of ways. But I like to build stuff. I love to renovate stuff. Whether that's something physical like a house, we renovated our house in Wake Forest. Or it's a degree program or it's a college or a seminary.

Jamie: I love taking something with good bones and developing it and flourishing it and renovating it and renewing and restoring. And I look at this place and I think holy moly, this place has got good bones. We could do so much cool stuff here.

Joe: One thing, our office monitors all of the social media chatter and all of this kind of stuff. And we just on and on. And so we see all the comments everywhere.

Joe: And as a reflection of what you just said, I think people are really excited that you're here. And I know you don't like a lot of me focused language, which we are liking this everything. But we haven't heard a single negative comment.

Joe: We haven't had to hide anything or be like oh, that's in appropriate. You know?

Jamie: Yeah.

Joe: It hasn't been that at all. It's been a very fluid, happy transition. And it's been surprising, just because you just don't see that. I'm very thankful.

Jamie: I'm very thankful for that. To be honest with you, that was one of the reasons I didn't want to be a president. I had no desire to lift my hand up and say me, I'll do it, put a target on my back. That sounds awful, to be honest with you. I'm not a perfect man, though. I'm grateful that it's been so well received. Maybe it's because I have the good fortune of being a normal human being prior to being an academic, or even being a pastor to be honest.

Jamie: But I've made ... I know what I've done. I know what my mistakes have been. And I shouldn't be here. There's the bottom line, I shouldn't be here. I've done horrible things. Yet Christ has redeemed and restored. And so I would simply say I know I'm going to make my mistakes. I know I have made my mistakes. And some of this probably a bit of a honeymoon. Maybe there's an encouragement that I seem to be a rather normal guy. And I do feel like I'm a rather normal guy.

Joe: You wore shorts the other day. I saw you.

Jamie: I did, wore shorts. That's right. I ride down the road and my kids make funny sounds out of the car. But I make my mistakes, I know that I will.

Jamie: And there'll be times I have to ask for forgiveness, or I have to correct something. But man, I tell you, I feel the magnitude of this responsibility. And this process and now this presidency has forced me to my knees in ways that really, gosh, it's been since I was a young, young, young man in Christ.

Jamie: And that has been sweet.

Joe: I think that's really a great testament to the picture, the bigger picture, of what's going on anyway. Like you described, you weren't looking for this. But God said this is what I want now and the transition just happened to, from our perspective, work really well. And so I feel like that all is the same story being told from different angles.

Joe: I have another question for you. When we do things in life, whenever we go over and beyond, we're often driven by passion or a burden. When somebody, probably somebody famous, said I can tell you what you value, let me see your calendar and your bank account, that kind of thing, because that's where you're going to spend your time and your money is what you care about.

Joe: So the question I have is you for that. What are the things that are burdening you specifically for NOBTS right now? What is your passion project, so to speak? Where is your effort pointed right now for NOBTS?

Jamie: Yeah, great question. I would ... really two fronts is where my mind is constantly turning at this point. One has to do with big picture, 30,000 foot vision type of stuff that has to do with the ethos of the school. And then there's another set of questions that I'm always churning on that are very, very practical and strategic. Let me start with the ethos types of things.

Jamie: I am struck. I'm like everybody else, to varying degrees. There was once a point in my life where it mattered to me very, very, very much that I be somebody intellectually and academically. You know? And so the press to publish and the press to do the degrees and all these things, there were lots of reasons I did that second Ph.D. But one of them was man, I just really wasn't satisfied yet academically. I wanted to keep driving.

Jamie: And through way more things than I can talk about right here of how the Lord worked to break my heart of those things, maybe that's another podcast for another day.

Joe: We could do that.

Jamie: The Lord just broke me and humbled me and reminded me of who I am and who I come from. And I don't care about that anymore. I really don't care if I ever get to publish another book, to be honest with you.

Jamie: I will and I'm scheduled to and I'm working on something.

Joe: So if the publisher's listening…

Jamie: Publishers, I'll get it to you, I promise. But I don't care. And I think it's become acutely aware for me that despite the fact that we're in a moment right now where people know my name, and even talk about me and maybe watch little videos about me or read articles about me or whatever else, here's the deal.

Jamie: This world will forget my name. That's the bottom line. The day I die, the people that come to my funeral are going to sit there and cry for a minute. And then they're going to go eat some fried chicken and move on with their life. And there'll come a point where even my own descendants, probably two or three or, not two. But maybe three or four generations down, my own great great great grandchildren won't know who I am. That's family.

Jamie: That's my reality. That's your reality. That's everybody's reality. So we should all remember that the fame for which we are laboring and striving for, the worship of our own name, that idol that we so often bow down to, is, as Ecclesiastes says, vanity of all vanities. I will be forgotten. And this school will one day be forgotten. And we should remember that. Now, the work that we do will not. The work that we do will last forever.

Jamie: With that in mind, here's what I want this school to be about. I want us to be a people that first and foremost above everything else are servants. If I can be honest, I love being a Southern Baptist. There's no other denomination I would want to be a part of. There really isn't. There's so many good, wonderful things about us. But in our worst version of ourselves, we can peacock. We can strut and we can puff ourselves up, we can look, show off how big we are and how special we are. And it's all vain. We'll all be forgotten one day.

Jamie: I want to train up a generation of people, I want to be a leader that, above everything else, just serve. And be willing, like Christ, to take the towel and the basin. Look, Paul says this. And we nerd out in Philippians 2 about the kenosis passage. Jesus emptying himself, he is God. It's one of these great Christological statements that Jesus is equal with God.

Jamie: Yeah, I get it. That theological point is there. But that is not the point of that passage. The point of that passage is what Paul is saying about Jesus he says as an illustration to the point. You, let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, that though he was God he humbled himself and became a servant.

Jamie: In other words, you're supposed to do that. I'm supposed to do that. This is what his followers are supposed to do. I want to be a part of training up a generation that they care vastly more about advancing Christ and his kingdom and serving the broken and the lost in the name of Christ than they do about getting their own church or having their own Twitter account with lots and lots of followers, or fill in the blank of whatever it is.

Jamie: That's first and foremost. Then I'd say two other things on the ethos front. Gospel proclamation. This is something New Orleans has been known for and has done well in its history. And doggone it, I don't want that to drop off. I want that to continue on and march on. We have to proclaim to those that are dying. Because they're perishing and they don't have life, even now as we speak. Not to mention what's to come. So gospel proclamation is vital and key.

Jamie: And I see in that, man, in church planting and church revitalization and missions and evangelism and all of those things have to be essential to what we do.

Jamie: And last of all, if we're going to do that, this is the part that strikes me, the Lord ... I've always know this. We always know this, right? But you know, the Bible tells us in the book of Psalms that unless the Lord builds a house those who build labor in vain. And Jesus says abide in me and I in you and you can bear much fruit, but apart from me you do nothing. Man, we are called to things vastly bigger than ourselves. And the Lord has burned that into my mind these last eight months throughout this process.

Jamie: And certainly for me I can sit here and tell you the job in front of me, the job that the Lord just put in my hands, is so much bigger than me. If I'm going to do any of the things that God's called me to do, he always calls us to stuff bigger than ourselves, if we're going to do all the things that God's called us to do, man, we are going to have to walk on our knees every single day with Christ.

Jamie: And he's going to have to show up. If he doesn't show up, then we're in a lot of trouble. As scary as that sounds, I think that that's the right place to be. So I want that, therefore. I want this to be a place where we walk with God more than we ever have. And that might sound oh of course this seminary president's going to say that. But those who've been to seminary will understand what I'm about to say, and maybe those who haven't maybe this will surprise you.

Jamie: Seminaries can often be the place where people's spiritual walks dry up. They don't mean to and it's surprising. But it's because we get here and all of a sudden Christianity goes from being a very personal, spiritual thing to now a very intellectual, professional thing.

Jamie: Yeah. We're doing it professionally now. And when that happens, we're ... that is a perfect recipe for disaster. And it's also a recipe to make us completely powerless to do the work that God's called us to do. Man, I hope that we can cultivate an environment here where our students have purity before God. Where our students have a prayer life that is vibrant and passionate and they're walking with him.

Jamie: So those are ethos things I want to do. And then I would just say this very quickly. Structurally then some strategic things that I want us to be about. Leavell College we're going to expand and develop a lot. Enrollment strategy, and by enrollment we don't just mean recruiting and admissions. We mean things like advising students, helping them with financial aid. Doing all the things that actually help students through their enrollment process, from matriculation at the beginning to graduation at the very end.

Jamie: Helping them to succeed. Because what we don't want is a generation of students coming, starting, and then fizzling out. We don't fulfill our mission when we do that. The students don't and we don't. We want students to get here and actually complete their programs and finish their programs. We want to increase the number that actually complete.

Jamie: Then marketing and communications. I think that our story, this podcast, has been a great example of the kind of thing I think we have to do more of. In the sense that people have a mindset about what New Orleans is all about.

Joe: Very much.

Jamie: And I think you ... God's like you and I, we have to sit down and tell that story very differently because this is a cool place to be. And then last of all, denominational relationships. I want to ... I need to meet, my team needs to reengage, the denomination itself. Because if we're really going to be servants for Christ we've got to be... So anyway. Those are the things. All that right there. This is where my mind is 24/7 as I think about our wonderful institution.