#927: Navigating Burnout: “It’s Not A Dead End, It’s A Cul-de-sac”

Dental A Team Podcast

Dr. Brian Harris of Smile Virtual gets real and raw with Kiera. The topic: burnout, and how Dr. Harris navigated it to boost himself toward success. He talks about what that meant personally, professionally, as well as tackling the reality of finances and production with a practice partner, and more.

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Transcript:

The Dental A Team (00:00.536)

Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and I am super pumped to welcome back one of our top guests that's been on the podcast, Dr. Brian Harris. I hope you guys caught his last podcast where we went into all things for Smile Virtual, how we can increase your practice by doing virtual consults. And today he's back to chat, case acceptance, and I'm going to geek out and ask him my own personal selfish questions, but Brian's incredible. Welcome back, Brian. How are you today? Thank you. It is great to be back. I loved the conversation we had last time and I feel like we started to

to get into some really cool topics and then we ran out of time. So this is great. I'm excited to be back for sure. I love someone who can geek dental with me for as long as we were to where we run out of time because we're just so in the thick of it. And so welcome back. I love it. Tell us though, for those who might have missed the last episode, kind of just give them a quick rundown of who you are, how you became the Brian Harris, how you're helping dentists across the nation. I love what you do. I think you do incredible work.

And we even have actually had, this is random. I have friends that have worked for you in Arizona that I just put the connection together last night. I was like, wait, Trista worked for you. And so it's kind of a fun time, but kind of for our audience, if they don't know you, give them a quick intro about you and what you do and how we even got here to then tee up our stage for today. Yeah, that's always scary when you have friends that have worked for somebody or worked for me because then you're like, shoot, they know like, they know the real me. So,

You know, I will I'll give you a background. You know, I feel like I've got, you know, a pretty common story in dentistry, but then also like a pretty interesting one, too. You know, I grew up around it. My dad was a dentist. I've got two brothers that are dentists. My father-in-law is a dentist. I mean, it's it's just kind of always been part of my life. Joined my dad's practice 2005. He was doing a ton of cosmetic dentistry at that time. And so

you know, naturally was able to mentor me and allow me to do a lot myself. And we have a, you know, just a great family cosmetic practice. And we built that into five different locations throughout Arizona. And then probably like 2016 was like the real pivot point for me because I was, you know, we were cruising along, we had the five locations, but I was burning out and

The Dental A Team (02:29.088)

And I kind of was just like, man, I just want to do what I love to do. And I don't necessarily want to be going to all these offices. I don't want to be working the hours that I was working. And so I had an experience with my wife kind of urging me to push and post more on social media and kind of show the world the type of dentistry that I do. And everything just kind of took off from there and started to build a brand and started to

to have patients flying in to see me. because of that, launched a software platform called Smile Virtual. talked about that last time and it's the top tele-industry platform now in our industry. And I still am seeing patients three long days a week and loving what I do with Smile Designs and probably about 70 % of all my patients fly in from out of state to see me in two visits.

That's my story. It's been pretty remarkable and I've been able to take the things that I've learned and I'm just passionate about sharing that with other doctors and helping them do the same in their own practices. I love it. Thank you for sharing that. And it was interesting because my husband and were talking last night. I told him, said, hey, tomorrow's podcast day. I'm really excited. We were chatting about your podcast. And my husband actually asked me an interesting question. He's like, Kiera, I think this would actually be a really good podcast topic. And I said,

I don't know the answer to it. So Brian, maybe you can actually help. Because as you were talking about your story and having the locations, I think there actually becomes this pivotal moment where we're on this path. And so my husband asked me, he said, what's the difference between settling, failing, and living in the moment? And I'm curious if you have any insights on that. I know I didn't prep you up for it, and I didn't even plan to talk about it with you. But I think you kind of hit that level, right? You could have kept growing, and you decided.

Like I'm burnt out, but I think so many of us it's like, well then am I settling and like gonna just scale back? Am I failing because I'm tired or am I like living in the moment or then also pivoting to what I really want? So do you have any insights on that? Like I said, I wasn't planning on it, but I didn't have quite the answers and I think it could be a really interesting combo to kind of kick us off today. Yeah, I love that question. I really love that question and I've never been asked it before. And so that's why when you asked it, I was like, huh.

The Dental A Team (04:50.446)

That's actually really interesting. I think, I think what happens is for me, at least the way I experienced it, it kind of, I experienced all three of those things at the same time. Like I felt like to some degree I was like, well, yeah, we have the five locations. Like I should be happy, know, I need to be successful doing what I love. But then also I kind of felt like I was, you know, so I felt like I was like, well,

am I settling because I don't get to do only the stuff I love? And then it kind of felt like failure because I felt like, you know, I should be happy, but I wasn't. So I kind of felt like I was failing at this game of happiness as a dentist. And then I think the third part of that is like recognizing that like, that's the sweet spot. Like that's where you want to be because I feel like that's where the magic happens when you get to this.

this point of like internal conflict of like, what's really going on here? Like that's like, when you make a move there, you know, if you make the right move, it's always going to be like the move that made a difference. know? It's interesting. And I'm curious, like, how did you reconcile through that? And like, how long does it take? Because I know, like I'm going through a very similar experience and like this summer, I just hit rock bottom and I'm like, but on paper, my life is like popping.

It's the most perfect and like people on the outside looking in are like, here, what are you talking about? My family is like, what are you talking about? But internally you have this guilt, you have this struggle. It's like, I'm so happy with the life I'm living, but I'm also like so stretched, so thin. And I'm also questioning like, am I really on the path that I want to be on? Or am I just on the path that kind of like fell into my lap? And maybe I'm, managing it rather than creating it. So like how long does, and I agree with you, it is the magic sweet spot, but it.

feels like it's the failure sweet spot. feels like it's the rock bottom. feels like it's the the ultimate failure of your life. I'm like, I'm, my life is so good that I'm so miserable. It's such like this like paradox of life. So how did you navigate through it? How long did it take you? Because it doesn't happen overnight. And I think so many people have this like

The Dental A Team (07:01.678)

misbelief that it's like, Brian woke up and was like, I know what I want to do. Versus it's like it takes some time. And maybe you did. Maybe I'm the one who just takes a long time to figure out what I want to do in life. But how was that for you? How did you navigate it? Yeah, I think what happens is, when you've been there a couple times, like to me, I see it now is like, that's just part of the process is part of growth. The first couple times I found myself in situations like that with different

companies that I started or things that I got involved in. It took me months, even years to make a decision. But now it happens all the time where, you know, I'll have this great idea and on paper, like it's like, this makes total sense. And then I start down that path and I'm like, ooh, this is a bad idea. And so now I've gotten really good at like, just, when I recognize that it's not a dead end, it's just a cul-de-sac. You just freaking turn around and go back the other way and,

and do something different. And so I think, I mean, you're going to have listeners, viewers that are at this point where they're like, I don't get it. Like I'm just getting started. don't even, I can't even get patients in the chair. Like I don't have that problem yet, but they will get to that point at some time. And so I think if you're there, then it's like, listen to this conversation, cause it's going to happen sometime. And then you're going to have a lot of people that I feel are there. And, and I think that the important thing is

stop making decisions, just decide. Just decide. If it's what you want to do and you're like, you know what, I'm ready for a change. A mentor of mine pushed me and as I was going back and forth with him of like, I want to do this, but I also only want to see small design cases. But I also don't want to make my dad and brother upset because they think I'm being selfish for not wanting to do hygiene exams anymore. I was going back and forth and he's like, dude, Brian.

He's like, for two days we've been talking, he's like, stop making decisions, just decide, are you gonna do it or not? He's like, if you're gonna do it, then just do it and then go and create it. But if you're not, then stop worrying about it and just get back to what you were doing before. How did you figure out, Brian, that you, that's so lovely, and I love that you brought up family dynamics and guilt and like, I don't want my spouse to think this about me, but it's like, people don't actually think those things. I think a lot of times we project it. And even if they do think that, like,

The Dental A Team (09:25.486)

At the end of day, it's your life and you're creating it and you're living it. How did you decide though? Cause I think there's a piece of you of like, you've got this serial entrepreneur in you. mean, we're going to talk clean products. We're going to talk a lot of the different things you've done. You cosmetic dentist, smile, virtual, clean products. Like you've got this serial entrepreneur within you. So you've got this like massive growth. You're building all these practices, but then you also love cosmetic dentistry. How did you navigate and decide like, what I really have my passion for is this? Because I think some people get like sloshy there and they get gray there. And it's like, it's.

under the surface of I think like layers and layers and layers of guilt or what I should be doing or maybe I don't know but I'm like I feel like people always have that core they do know how did you decide that that was your core and you wanted to do these these smile virtual designs and that's what you really wanted to do. Yeah, I think I think two things happen I think people they realize it's what they want to do but then they don't feel like you know they have these thoughts of doubt of like well

I'm never gonna have enough of those type of patients come in. I think that's a separate conversation. I think the conversation of like the first part that you mentioned of like, do you do that without feeling selfish? Especially within like a family dynamic. I think you just have to be vulnerable and really open and honest and speak to your partners. Speak to those in your life that it's going to affect and come up with a way where it works for everybody. know, it was, and I mean, rightfully so.

It does seem selfish to say like, hey, I am only going to do smile designs. I don't want to do hygiene exams anymore. You know, if I've got a dad and a brother who are my partners that are like, well, that's not fair. know, cool. We don't want to do them either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it depends. Every practice different sometimes like, that's, that's how you fill your schedule. But other times, like it is a burden. And so being able to go to them and say, okay, here's my thought. If I do this.

I know it's going to increase my personal production, know, and we're partners, you know, all three of us are partners in this. And so in the end, what's going to happen is like, I'm willing to push hard. I'm willing to work hard. And at the time I think I was personally producing, I think my monthly average is about 450,000 a month, just myself, you know, doing smile design cases. And so I was able to show them like, if I do this,

The Dental A Team (11:49.08)

there's gonna be significant amount more money going into practice that we can all share. And the trade off is that I'm not gonna have to do the exams and I'm gonna be able to practice kind of over here separate from the practice, but it's gonna put more stress on you guys, but ultimately we'll all win financially because we're partners. And that's exactly what happened. So. Yeah, no, and I think that's incredible because I also think as society and as doctors and as partners and as people,

I think we often think what's fair is equal. And that's actually not true. Like it doesn't have to be like just because you can produce more doesn't mean that we have to be seeing all the hygiene exams. And I think when we can all step back and say, what's in the betterment of the business, which is ultimately in the betterment of all of us. And then how can we do that? And I know for even like some partnerships, yeah, it does make sense financially for you to do it, but the stress of the hygiene exams is going to be a piece for us.

Well, great, let's find a middle ground. Maybe I take pick up hygiene exams one day out of the week, but I do smile design cases for the rest of the week until we realize like this is really better or like let's bring on an associate that does hygiene exams. Where it's like there's so many different crayons in our crayon box. Like let's not forget that we don't just have black and white. We actually have all the myriad of colors and finding the solution. I think it's important. So thanks for like going down that rabbit hole with me a little bit. I was just so curious. I'm like, it seems like he's got it like pretty much figured out. And I also really loved and I hope people heard like

I think the more we can practice this skill of, like, I remember I was at a conference this summer and the speaker was saying, he's like, why, why did you ever think that you have just one why or one purpose in this life? He's like, why can't you think that you might have multiple purposes and multiple whys throughout your lifetime? And it was just like, aha moment. Cause I was like, find your why. I'm like, what if there's a few whys throughout like the chapters of our life. And so I really loved how it sounds like you've just built that mental resilience of.

try this path and if we get to the end, it's just a cul-de-sac and we redirect and come back rather than it being like, I'm at the bottom, I'm at the ultimate failure. No, we're just like redirecting and figuring out exactly where we're going. And I think like mountain climbs, you look at it, it's not just a straight uphill climb. It's literally like there's dips and ups and dips and ups, but that's actually how we get to the top, not just in one like direct line. So I really, really loved it. Any last thoughts you've got on that before I pivot into case acceptance and clean products?

The Dental A Team (14:06.348)

No, the only other thing that I thought of when when I was talking is just what I don't think it's talked about enough is partnerships and especially family partnerships, but just partnerships in general. I mean, you hear just horror stories of how how things end and and the reality is like working with family or working with partners where you're really close like it's it can be a beautiful thing, but it's it's just like a marriage to like you.

you will have your times where, you know, there's frustration, there's, you know, anger, there may be some tears, you have to be able to just talk through things and hear both sides and come up with a solution that's fair. I think when I see things fall apart, there's all this tension, but nobody's willing to talk about it. And I think that's where problems happen.

So let's dig a little deeper on partnerships because you actually have family partnerships and then you have other business partnerships. What do you find are some of the top things to make partnerships successful? Because there is a phrase that I have heard that I think is very ironic and they say, partnerships sink ships. But then I also hear other people where partnerships can actually exponentially grow the ship as well. So what are some of the things you've done from family partnerships to business partnerships?

that you feel have set that up because I don't think you could do all the things you do without strong partnerships. Maybe you could. I don't know. Maybe you're Superman and I don't know it. But I feel like so much of your success is actually on leveraging and being connected to really great partners. I could be wrong. But what do you find within that partnership world that has helped you be successful in partnerships and not sinking the ships? I think you have to find partners that, you know, are aligned in the same vision. But I also think you

you have to go into it with a strong understanding that it may end. And if it does, how do you both be able to walk away and be at peace with everything? I think the struggle I've found for myself in some partnerships in the past is like for me, and it's just more my personality, like I'm ready to go. Like I'm up at four every day. I leave my house by like,

The Dental A Team (16:27.854)

between 431 and 432, depends on how long it takes me to feed the dogs. And I'm at the office, I've got a little bit of a commute, but I'm there at 510. And then I work until I start seeing patients at seven, and I don't take a lunch, and I work through the end of the day. On Thursdays, I work nonstop on the businesses. But I recognize now, but that's not normal. And it's not necessarily healthy. For most people, it's not.

healthy thing. It's just how I operate best. And I would go into partnerships sometimes expecting that like, we're both going to just be working this hard and growing this thing. And my brother Scott's like a perfect example of this. Like, he is very balanced. And he is like, he's going to go to the gym. And he's going to leave right on time so he could be home be with the family. And it and, you know, so it's it's like for him.

He's not going to waver. He's not going to bend on those things because, you know, those, you know, structure for him and his personality is extremely important. And so it's just understanding those things and then creating things within the partnership around that that just work. So again, communication, but then also don't just go form partnerships to form partnerships. You know, no, I was going to say, I think sometimes you're like, well, I have this idea.

I'll partner with somebody and we'll go and do it. I think you can actually run much faster alone. And then when you get to a point where it's time to bring in like a good strategic partner, you know, then then really think about who that who that person is. So on that, I'm curious, we're going to dig into this. This is so juicy, because people don't talk about it. So Brian, thank you for like tipping into the iceberg with me that I think is so just relevant. What's your take on? Do you go 5050?

And then as a stronger producer, how do you make that to where you as a stronger producer actually don't become resentful to say people who like your brother Scott are leaving on time? Like how do you, because I think that the resentment is the underlying tones. Logically, I can understand that like I'm this type of wiring. My brother's this type of wiring, but how do you not like allow that underlying tension? Do you set it up to where you're paid more as a higher producer? Because I know that there's some partnerships where the producer, I think

The Dental A Team (18:52.27)

I don't know. I'm going to give air quotes. think sometimes being the larger producer sometimes feels like the easier person in the partnership, even though like I've got air quotes around that because the other partner usually is the one picking up the hygiene exams. They're doing the minimal dentistry, but they're benefiting from the higher producer. And the higher producer has all the stress of you've got to freaking produce as well to like carry this ship as well. Like how do you navigate and not get resentment? Should it be 50 50? Should it be broken down on like

how much you're producing so that way you keep your drivers incentivized. Like what are your thoughts around how to set that up? Obviously, this is what's worked for you. People have to figure out what works for them. But any tips that you have on that or insights from all the partnerships you've done? Yeah, I'll just share what's worked for my brother Scott and I and hopefully he's cool with me sharing this. And we need to understand about Scott is like he's

He's an amazing cosmetic dentist. Like his attention to detail is like next level. And that's not saying that mine is not. It's just that, you know, from like a comfort level and speed and like flow, what works for me really works for me. It works for him, really works for him. But yeah, like let's say, let's say in a certain scenario, you know, you get to the end of the month and you're 50, 50 partners, but let's say, you know, I'm just going to use rough numbers just to keep it simple.

Let's say one partner produces $100,000 and the other one produces $200,000 and you're both paid on a percentage of what you do. let's just call it like 35%. Well, what happens is over here, after I get paid my 35%, Scott gets paid his 35%. Like that's fair because we're getting a percentage of what we produce. But a lot of times in this higher percentage area of production, there's more pure profit going to the practice.

Right. so, but technically you split all the profit 50-50. Right. And so what can happen sometimes is you get to a scenario where like you're like, wait, for me to move the needle more and to make more money, I've got to produce significantly more. Right. And so what Scott and I ended up doing is like, we would just say like, hey, this is what it is. We each get paid our 35%. We split whatever comes in, but that we stop.

The Dental A Team (21:14.734)

like two times a year, once before the summer, once before the end of the year, look at all the numbers and say like, okay, before we do this actual split, let's look at it. Do feel it's fair? You know, are you good with how things are going? He would say his piece, I would say mine. And if we looked at the numbers and it was like, man, I produced quite a bit more the last six months, then we take whatever that money was there to split that month and be like, well, hey, how do you feel about 70 30 or a feel about 60 40? And, and we would do things

that way. And I know that doesn't work for everybody. But I think I think just being open, it's like you have you have the rules of like how the partnership set up. But then you also have the ability to be able to say like, Hey, do we need to adjust a couple times a year? And would this feel more fair just so you don't get to a place where you're resentful? And you said oftentimes, the easier partner is to be the higher producer. Yeah.

I totally agree with that. But then I also feel like sometimes, you know, the the partner doctor, you know, that's not a fun place to be in either, because, you know, they're they're always feeling like, you know, they're always feeling like maybe there could be some resentment there, they're always feeling like, you know, maybe things potentially aren't fair. I mean, it's it's a delicate, it's a delicate situation. But I think you

You treat the business like a business. I guess that's the one thing that I would say is treat it like a business. Try to take the emotion out and say, okay, what's really like the fairest way to do this? And that will resolve a lot of the issues. Yeah. And I think like props to you and Scott. Scott, I know you're not on this, but thank you. Like, hopefully you listen to this. I also think that there's different value systems, right? Like hearing just you and Scott, I don't know Scott, I'm not interviewing Scott, I'm not podcasting with him. But to me, sounds like Scott's big thing is like his balance of his life.

Like he wants to be with the kids. He wants to work out. He wants to have like, loves doing dentistry. but like that to me is what I would think if I was looking at a value chart, that would be it. And Brian, not to say that your family is not important. Brian's family. That's not what we're saying here. Okay. We're just saying Brian's wired to your, a race horse. You want to go, you want to drive like that keeps you so inspired. And when you're fulfilled that way, you actually show up better for your family. You show up better for yourself. I can relate to that because I'm very much wired that way. And I always feel like a little bit of a jerk, like

The Dental A Team (23:39.32)

Jay, I promise I love you. But it's like there's two different value systems running too. And so I think when partners can realize that, like, don't chop off Brian as this racehorse who wants to produce and wants to be there early and wants to go at 4.30 in the morning. Don't cut that to make the partnership fair. Like let Brian be himself, let Scott be himself. And then like you said, I do think the evaluation throughout the year is smart because a racehorse like yourself, Brian,

Like it is fun on the production. is fun to like hit the numbers. fun to see what you can produce. It's fun to challenge yourself. Like that's, think probably like growth and that drive for you. And so reward that person, give them like extra production, like rock on, keep running, keep doing it. And I'm going to keep my awesome balanced life over here. And I can see that. But I also think like kudos to Scott. I think that takes a lot of humility on his part too, to see that, because I think so many partners potentially on Scott's side can actually feel like less than.

and ego can creep in and say, well, no, I'm doing all these other things. We're fair. We're equal. So like, what do do when that creeps in of ego? Maybe Scott's just like an amazing human. I'm sure there's been times though. How do you guys navigate that conversation, Brian, because I've heard it in so many partnerships that I can't imagine you guys are immune to it forever. Maybe it was just earlier on too. Yeah, I think part of it is

You know, I remember we, I run a mastermind and a group of doctors that I started about six years ago and it's called the Elite Academy. And when we meet together, we'll share numbers, we'll share production numbers. I think...

Scott had always felt a certain way about it until we're in this room and everyone's sharing their numbers. And he's like, wait, I actually am a super high producer. He's like, wait, I'm producing $180,000 a month just himself. And yet maybe in our partnership, it can feel a certain way just because of how I work or how I do things. But the reality is he's super successful.

The Dental A Team (25:50.382)

cosmetic dentist and and is producing a really high level. So I think it's it's important to understand that like you got to step out of it sometimes and look at like the big picture and be like, okay, maybe this isn't what it seems like. But then also like, you know, it does happen sometimes where you have a partner that's just just cool cruising kind of at the bare minimum and and and I think you have to respect that you either change the partnership you get out of it or

Like you respect that and you come up with a better solution that's going to to work for that partnership. have, I have a close friend that got stuck in one of the situations where he was kind of essentially feeding the other two partners and they were on cruise control. It started to create a lot of resentment because he's wanting to run fast over here. They're like, Hey, we're comfortable here. Part of the reason they're comfortable is because all this productions, you know,

going to them and paying the bills. And so that that's a type of situation where he struggled forever to get out of that and finally went to him and said like, Hey, I think it's time that we dissolve the partnership. And at the end of the day, I think they feel like it's the best move to they don't want to be living in that kind of stress either. So just communication, just talk about it. And I think like that feels scary. It feels scary to have those conversations. It feels scary to say that I had a very similar I remember working with a partnership and

the doctor that was a high producer was so frustrated because the other doctor was just not even like, not even trying to support, not looking for ways, like super comfortable. Like I got this great producer, keep producing for me. I'm gonna sit over here and have my great life. But there, built up so much resentment between the two that it was irreparable. And so really, like you said, I think having those conversations and when things frustrate you from the get go or like, I think we think we're being the bigger person, I think it's cool.

just let it like roll over. But I'm like, when you let it roll over so often, I see it with so many partnerships, I see it in marriages of doctors that are married and they're working in the practices and I'm sure you do too. It's, I think it's we work on it when it's like a tiny sliver rather than when it's a massive boulder between the two. Because then you can't fix it. But like a little sliver, we can like pluck that out and we can take care of it we can repair that and we can move on. But so many times I think it's we gloss over, we don't work on it, we don't talk about it.

The Dental A Team (28:18.124)

and talking about it in a way where we actually come to a resolution, not a caving or giving in that then later builds resentment. So kudos to you guys, Brian. think great job, Scott. Great job, Brian. And I love what you said, Brian. And I'm the same way I always say, plan the divorce before you get married. How will we split this so that way all parties know? I think education on that is very powerful to know how we're going to end this if we ever end it. And then we write it and we do it until it no longer serves, but also.

Seeing the value that other partners bring, even if you're the high producer, think like kudos to you Brian on that. I think that that's a really magical thing because they do a lot of work that you're not doing. Like you're not doing hygiene exams. so seeing that that value, even though it's not dollar per dollar production, it does allow you to produce exponentially more. And without that, now you'd probably be okay. You probably don't need it as much, but to get you to where you are, they had to pave the way for you as well too. I think that there's, gosh, like you're right. There's just so many dynamics on it. So kudos to

But it's also a beautiful thing too. mean, if you look at, I mean, I've been married 24 years now. And if you look at, if you look at like relationships and partnerships, like you, you, you, least in my own relationship, I start to see like for, for so long, it was like, man, I wish she could be like this, or she would think, wish she could be more like this. And then you start to realize like, Hey, part of what makes this work is that we are very different. And part of what makes it work is like, you know,

we have different things to bring to the relationship. I think partnerships, it's the same thing, but sometimes we look at it as like, well, no, I'm doing this, they should be doing this too. Could you imagine what a marriage would be like if you were the younger or if you were the lower producer and you just felt like every day, your spouse was looking down on you and all the things that you're not doing right and how you need to be better and how you need to show more love. mean, it would just feel

it would feel super empty, but that's it's the same type of feelings, you know, and so it's being able to be like, okay, wait, okay, here's our here's our each of our strengths, like, let's play off these and let's create a great relationship. So yeah, no, and I'm so glad you brought that up. Because I remember for a long time, my husband is just such a fun human. And he like his his phrase lately has been like, gosh, like, why is life so good? And he's just like, obsessed with living in the moment and obsessed with being so happy. And I he reminds me

The Dental A Team (30:46.488)

to stop and smell the freaking roses of like this beautiful rose garden we've built rather than be like, rose garden done. We now need a forest. Like he's so good at reminding me of that. And for probably like the first five years of marriage, we've just hit our 13 years, so not the 24. But I remember like at year five, six, I thought, gosh, like I probably should have married someone different. Like I probably should have married someone who's a stronger driver with me. Someone who like challenges me harder. Neither is wild epiphany of

man, if I would have married that person, I don't think I could have blossomed to the level that I did because I would have been competing with someone. I wouldn't have had someone who's there like supporting me day in day out. Jason will wake up early with me in the morning. I'm sure you do it too, Brian. Like we just rattle off all of our brilliant ideas. Our poor spouses like love them because we just like hit them with all these great ideas and they just sit there and they love us and they encourage us and they inspire us. And I just thought there is so much beauty in who Jason is.

being complimentary to me rather than being the same as me. And it took a long time for me to realize that compliments actually so beautiful. And that's what makes the masterpiece rather than being the exact same color. And I think that it's well said. And with partnerships, just think like it takes humility and it takes like effort and it takes intentionality on partnerships to see what they're doing right rather than focusing on what's wrong, because what they're doing right and good and great is as available as what they're not doing and what they're failing at.

Both are available to us every single day. It's just which one are we choosing to look at more? And that's what creates our vision from my perspective. Yeah. For those just joining, welcome to the successful marriage podcast. We're here today. We'll dive into all things relationships. it's, it's, listen, it's beautiful. And, and I think some of it just comes with time and maturity and realizing like, I think the more time has gone on,

the more I realized like a lot of times like, and maybe I am the problem in both professional and personal relationships. And when you start to realize like, okay, you're way more in control than you think you are. So no, that was good. I'm glad we went into all that. I think it's important. You and me both. And I know we had come into the podcast thinking we were going to talk about something and the reality is we went in different route, but that's how podcasts work. so

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And I'm glad we did because I do agree with you. Partnerships are not discussed a lot. And I think people jump into partnerships and they're so excited about them. And I think you and I have a lot of years of experience personally. I've been in several partnerships myself in business and I've been burned a lot. I've had some very great successes a lot. I think you probably can relate. But the reality is I think so much success can come from partnerships. So just to clarify, do you believe in 50-50 partnerships? So pretend you're a solo doctor. You don't have family.

Are you a 50-50 proponent? Are you like a 30-70 proponent? Are you a small in this practice? And then we go 50-50 in the next practice. What's kind of your like, your flavors on partnerships just as a general consensus, which I understand will asterisked across. Every marriage looks different. Every relationship looks different. Every partnership looks different. There's different reasons for different pieces. But if you're an owner doctor, because I think so many owner doctors, Brian, you hear this, I hear this. I built this freaking practice and now just going to give away 50%.

and the newer doctors like, yeah, I'm not going to be like less than you. So like, how do you navigate that? What are your thoughts on that? Since we've decided to elect to partnerships today, partnerships and marriages, whatever we want to talk about. No, it's great. Let's do it. When, when I first bought into my dad's practice, we sat down with a consultant and the way they looked at it, they're like, Hey, if we're going to do this, we have it valued. And whatever that top value is, Brian, like that's what you're going to pay into the partnership.

Like you will be 50-50 partner, but you're going to buy in what the practice is worth now. And I think that's absolutely how it should be handled. I think you treat it like a business. When my dad retired a couple of years ago. So then at that point, then when it was time for Scott to buy in, we had the practice evaluated at top dollar and then Scott bought in one third of that. How long has Scott been working? Just as clarity. Cause a lot of doctors get angry with this too, cause they feel like they've worked. They've

added to the value of the practice and they don't want to buy their equity that they've done. So Scott's been out of school two years less than I have. So he graduated in 2007, but he had his own practice. One of the five offices was his and then he bought in. We ended up selling off the four offices, kept our flagship office. He bought in as one third partner on that. So he was partners on the rest. But as far as our main practice in Phoenix, he bought in and paid

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what one third was worth. And then when my dad retired, like we both came in and we bought out my dad's one third for what it was worth. Now at the time, you could say like, I mean, it was like eight and a half million dollar practice. And so you could say of that, probably 45 % of that on an annual basis was maybe 40 % was coming just from my production. So like I could have

And I'm not going to lie. I started to go there. I started to be like, wait, I'm to pay top dollar. But essentially what I'm paying for is what I've. Yes. What I myself. Yeah. And like what I've been building. Yeah. And so it's like, well, yeah, over the last several years, like, you know, I've been producing, you know, three, $4 million a year myself for last several years. So that's why now we're at this place where the practice is worth eight and a half. Exactly. And, and so it's like, well, is it fair that I then go in and pay?

top dollar, even though a lot of that's coming from me. And I think the answer to that is absolutely it's fair. It's fair because, you know, my dad started in 79, you know, and we bought in along the way. And the fair thing to do is like treat it like a business. And and then there's then there's no regrets. And so, you know, it can seem it can seem unfair from the owner or the senior doctor standpoint.

But the last thing you want is a partner that's not motivated or that's resentful. I think it's okay to acknowledge those things, to say like, hey, here's what I'm feeling and here's why. And here's what I spent a lot of time building. And I just need you to know that so you know like what I'm going through and maybe this isn't, it's not easy for me. But then the last thing I'll say is the consultant back in 2008 when I first bought into the practice is like, at the end of the day, both of you should feel like you're getting screwed.

And he's like, that's, you know, like you've got a good deal. And that's exactly what happened. I felt like I was paying more than I should have for my half of my dad's practice. And my dad was like, well, I got screwed. Like I should have got more. And, and that's where we knew we were like at a good place. Yeah. No, that's actually really good because I hear so many doctors say this, where I even have a partnership right now that we're working through and the, the doctor buying in, they have actually two locations and the doctor buying in right now, like,

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doesn't like it's really hard for them to see for the second location to pay for it in two years after they've been working for it. And so I'm actually really happy to hear from you because I don't know what that feels like. I can buy in as a consultant. I can buy in as a team member. I can buy in on all those different levels. I can help close the cases. I can help grow the practice. Like the systems we bring in are exponentially high, but I'm not a producer. And I think the producer piece is the hard piece because you're like, I literally have grown this and now I'm going to buy into that. How did you work through that Brian? Because

so many doctors think it's more fair of like, no, no, no, let's get evaluation today. And then in two years, I'll pay for it, or whatnot, or like we take out my production. But like, how did you and your dad reconcile that? Because I look at it, I'm like, yeah, but your dad had a practice and without your dad, you would never have had this opportunity to do it. You can argue with me and say, I could have gone and done on my own. And I always say, then go do it. You're clearly buying in for this. How did you reconcile that? Because I think your space is actually a really hard space to come to.

when you're actually buying your own production in that practice, because you are, that's what the true fair value of that business is.

Yeah, so we've actually kind of technically done it both ways. So the first time when I bought in, it was like, okay, this is something we're to want to do, but to do it right and to get financing in place, let's scale up. And this is going to happen. You know, we'll sign documents in like six months. But what we're going to do is we're going to value the practice now. And, know, so that Dr. Harris, you're motivated to, you know,

Dr. Brian Harris, you're motivated to grow and still build this practice, but you're going to pay for what the fees are now. And every month, we're going to set aside some of that cash instead of paying you on a percentage of production. So let's say you're getting paid 35%, then you'd say, for the next six months, you're actually going to get paid 40%, but 5 % of that will be held back and we'll go towards paying you part of the practice.

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I think there's ways that you can do it to where the doctor buying in, especially if it's like, this is going to be in two years. You can do a hold back on profits and say, yes, let's do it in two years. Let's value it then. But instead of 35%, let's pay you 40%. You're only going to take 35, but we're going to put 5 % over here. And that's going to grow. And that can be used as your down payment. So it's essentially like the doctor's not.

just working their butt off for nothing. They're working towards buying the practice and that extra money is going towards that purchase price. Yeah. And I think you have a really good long vision game. You knew this is where you wanted to be. You knew it was a great place for you. It was with your family. It was something long term. I think you buying in, you had to have a longer term vision for it of seeing, yesterday, like you said, I agree. I had a mentor this summer tell me, they're like,

you should always feel like you're being screwed. Both parties need to feel like they're being screwed and it's the perfect deal. Cause if one party feels like they walked out of there like high on the cloud, then it's not the right deal. and like go back to the drawing board until you both feel that way. So I think though kudos to you to have that long-term vision. because I think a lot of people can't see that and it's like, no, no, no, it's so good. Like it might sting today, but just think about it eight years down the line. I mean, what you bought it in 2008 and now we're 2024.

That's a pretty long-term vision. Your dad's not in the practice. sounds like your brother's there now. And you guys are now building this to where is today. That's incredible. And Dental A Team listeners, I cannot wait for you to hear Brian and I finish this conversation. Today we talked about partnerships and all the different pieces. And tomorrow we are actually going to cover how to have a successful practice.

after you buy in. So get ready, I cannot wait for you guys. We broke this one up into two parts because I think it's that important for you. And as always, thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.