MMT50 - 233

Meeting Malkmus - a Pavement podcast

This is so fucking cool. Bob Nastanovich joins me this week to talk about a whack of shit including song 33!!!!

Transcript:

1:00] Loretta Scars. Alex from Portland, how are you feeling about Loretta Scars?

It's a great song. I've got all kinds of thoughts on it, but it's on Flannid

and Enchanted, which is a great album. it's,

Slanted and Enchanted is the least varied album in my opinion like,

most of the songs on it are kind of of one vibe and this is definitely no exception

I think it's a great vibe I enjoy it Hey this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band.

Track 3

[1:40] Pavement and you're listening to The Countdown Hey it's It's JD here back for

another episode of our top 50 countdown for Seminole indie rock band Pavement.

Week over week we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that

you selected with your very own top 20 ballads.

I then tabulated the results using an abacus, a bicycle pump,

lotion, and some biscuits for Kevin, my homemade from uni.

How will your favorite songs fare in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune in to find out.

So there's that. This week we're joined by

pavement superstar bob fucking nastanovich

bob what is up no

okay cool and you're aren't you a toronto person

sure am yeah how are things

there bright blue sunny skies today

about five degrees celsius so that's

like spring weather for us especially yeah that's nice

yeah we've got I don't

mean to show you up Jamie but it's 63

degrees Fahrenheit here with a light breeze and a bright sunshine oh man here

in Paris Tennessee you know like a typical winter day here is kind of gray and

44 but it's especially nice.

Track 3

[3:03] Today which is pretty awesome that sounds about right

that sounds like good you know good walking weather

so yeah how are you doing all right with this

project so far so good i'm like

like people are lining up to do it uh like

i'm caught up through march uh i've

got to do some interviews this week with people so

basically people seem to be like i

was like i don't know how people respond to a top 50 that

they have to listen to every week but i

don't know my numbers are good and um like good

for me you know yeah they'll get into it yeah i

think so and like just a little bit of water cooler debate right

what's that bud just a little

bit of water cooler debate yeah exactly you

know like what if what are you fucking thinking greenlanders like

greenlander was 46 six and

you know people were really pleased that

it made the top 50 but then there's another cohort that are like that's crazy

it should be at least in the top 30 you know or whatever so no that is so weird

i mean i don't um i do know people that love greenlander and i um ineffectively insisted.

Track 3

[4:18] On trying to get

it played live in iceland and that would have been cool yeah and um he we sound

checked it and it sounded just fine for about 70 seconds and malchus was.

Track 3

[4:43] Like i don't want to do that one you know and then um with him you know his attitude was so.

Track 3

[4:53] Sterling in 2022 and 2023 that um you don't and he was willing to play so many,

different songs because in the past like specifically in 2010 um i just think

it's uh i mean i remember his attitude back then was sort of uh.

Track 3

[5:18] It's going back to a more juvenile style of songwriting for him, which is more direct,

but I guess maybe it kind of reminded him of certain aspects of his life.

I mean, especially the earlier stuff, pre-Steve West, seems to give him a certain

amount of actual PTSD, which is a word I never use.

Track 3

[5:48] Self-reference um just because of um

the stress caused by gary like

i sat next to him when we watched the screening of gary's documentary and

um it he did

not i mean it's a great documentary have you seen it

i did yeah it's a great documentary and

i don't think they really could have done a better job and um

i mean i would have been wildly pleased

with it i know gary was um so cool

that he got to see it before he passed at least right i

can't i can't believe he lived that long i mean no

way you know i mean i mean for

him to make it to 70 um should give us all belief that we can do it too um but

he comes from really supremely great genes in terms of longevity his parents

lived well into their 90s and uh for some reason despite.

Track 3

[6:49] Every possible attempt without actually attempting suicide he basically tried

to shorten his life um man i

mean he was just what was it like when you first met him bob what was that

situation exactly like every other time i met

him um he uh

i mean at first he was kind of suspicious of me because he i mean you know very

briefly he was suspicious of me because he thought that i was like a friend

of malchmas's who could probably drum and was there to replace him so So for the first,

until a day or two in, we practiced in his parents'

house the first time we went on tour in 1990.

And when I say practice, I think we only had 12 songs and we only played six or seven shows, I think.

And when he realized that I couldn't play drums, he...

He relaxed a little bit. I mean, I think he realized that I was there to,

like, kind of carry gear and make things happen and drive and then...

You do more than that, dude. You do. I mean, back then, I actually did very

little. There's this je ne sais quoi that you bring.

Well, yeah. I mean, I developed my role over the years.

Track 3

[8:09] It's hard for me to really accept my overall importance. But back then,

there were some shows, you know, shows back then were 45 minutes or whatever.

And there were some shows where if he was on, I really didn't have to do a thing

but sort of stand there. I mean, it was, it was strange.

I mean, there was a few, there's like, there were times where I would actually be like, um,

pretty embarrassed because people in the audience must've thought,

you know, why does the, why does the guy who doesn't do anything have to stand on the stage?

And um and then also after the first time we toured europe in 92 and it was

we played like maybe 28 shows in 31 days or something and we we finished in

belgium somewhere and remco,

was doing our sound for the first time that far back he goes i didn't realize that He goes back.

The very first night we met him was about five o'clock on the day that we opened

for My Buddy Valentine and Super Chunk at the Old Ritz in New York. What a lineup.

Track 3

[9:27] Yeah. And he, uh, we played for 25 minutes and we played seven songs and, but whatever.

So we met Remco outside the old Ritz. Um, we were on a, um.

Track 3

[9:46] On a label called Big Cat, which was run by this rather scurrilous fellow named

Abbo, Stephen Abbott, who was in a band called UKDK.

And as it turned out, he was actually kind of a thief, but he knew Remco because

Remco had worked with the band Copshoot Cop.

And so he kind

of figured that this young Dutch kid should do sound for us because we needed

a sound man because we would turn up in a lot of places and we'd be so disheveled

and disorganized and unprofessional that local sound staffs would be like,

who are these assholes?

You know what i mean like back then in the 90s if you didn't sort of show up.

Track 3

[10:41] I mean if you showed up at least in the manner that

pavement did a lot of these people you know you

were really at the mercy of

people um who

you know hypothetically were

into sound garden started and if you

didn't sound like them then you could

fuck right off um and if you didn't bring

that some level of professionalism or panache um then you could really get the

shaft because people would just be like really annoyed that they had to work

with you and that's and and that's really what it's like when you have to depend

on the house unless you've got one of of those rare situations where they give a crap.

Right. So from that point on, you guys were on the road with Remco.

Yeah, pretty much.

Ninety seven percent of the time, like in 2010, like those one off things in

North America, we wouldn't fly them over.

Bob Weston did set them sound for us a few times.

Now we've got this guy named Aaron Mullen.

Track 3

[11:54] Who did a few shows this year. I mean, it's just if it makes no sense.

Financially for Remco to come over for a short stint. I mean,

obviously doing sound for pavements, not rocket science,

but Remco was proved his effectiveness generally at festivals.

Festivals um he's pretty

passionate about making sure the bands he works for

sound good because it's big time

ego gratification for him um if

like if people go around and say you guys sounded really great you know you

know and so he's he's very competitive in that regard which worked in our favor

yeah sure did you guys sounded great at the festival i went to the Primavera in Porto.

That was a fantastic show.

Yeah. I'm happy that I see Barcelona didn't sound very good.

Um, cause Remco didn't come to the practices, um, had trouble getting his visa.

So he was completely unprepared for Barcelona.

He didn't really even have Rebecca turned up.

Track 3

[13:08] And then a lot of the stuff that I'd learned because she's in the band now,

um, Which I hadn't done before, weren't even turned on in Barcelona.

And then in Porto, I'm not sure if you're aware of it,

but I showed up for sound check and the bright blue case that had all of my

bits and bobs of percussion,

some of which I'd had since the early 90s, got stolen.

Are you fucking kidding me? No, I didn't know that. No, I had no gear.

I had no gear. I didn't even have anything to mount.

I didn't have a tambourine that you can hit, and I didn't have anything to mount it on.

And I had no tambourine maracas, cowbells, whistles, all my tricks, and claves.

And thank goodness that Rebecca...

Track 3

[14:16] Was in the band because at first rebecca was just going to kind of come out there,

and do keyboard parts and either come

and go or just kind of sit there and she's a

really good i mean she's a great drummer and she's

a really good percussionist um so i said no you're

gonna do something on every song and

then we you know quickly find out found out that she can

do background vocals on anything and that's

great she can scream and obviously and

she's also very joyful performer um and she was you know she's a good very good

percussionist so thankfully i was able to use some of her stuff um that night

but it was still was not my stuff i I mean, it was very,

very, it would be like if.

Track 3

[15:11] Well, actually, I think it kind of, I mean, it would be like if,

like, guitars got stolen from a guitar player.

I mean, that actually, it happened to Dinosaur, I think maybe in Porto,

Dinosaur Jr., all their guitars got lost and they were still in Italy when they played.

Oh my god yeah so they

had to play i think they bought guitars um you

know that's so whatever i mean

i'm happy that it was me because if it

had been like anybody else

then they probably would have had a harder time i mean i was able to just you

kept it cool i'll just wing it you know what what i mean like it was funny because

nobody you know people you kind of realize the level of.

Track 3

[16:07] How, uh, you know, the, the immense level, you know, of your bandmates,

they're kind of focused on their own deal.

Like they couldn't deal with that.

My bad news. Um, only Rebecca could like only Rebecca could like,

you know, I mean, she's great.

She's great. she was really a neat addition like

really uh from the fonda

show i mean i went to the fonda show that was just

it was mind-blowing that was a that was my favorite

show of the tour like that was the first i can see why i mean it was long if

you're a big fan i mean we played tons of songs and it sounded fine and it was

small and the atmosphere was good and i mean at least 90 90% of the people in

there were way into the band. Oh, yeah.

So, I mean, it was kind of an ideal time to see Pavement because we were fresh

off the shelf and in a mode where we kind of had to give everything a go.

Yeah, it was tremendous to be a part of it and experience it.

One thing I wanted to talk to you about was Rebecca Clay Cole and you know, her, um.

Track 3

[17:29] Her contributions, I suppose, to the overall pavement experience,

like, um, is she sort of a permanent member at this point? Is she coming to South America?

I mean, of course she's coming to South America, right?

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, that's it. And that's it. I mean, right now that's it. Sure. Sure.

It's 2024. You guys have been on the road for two years, man.

Yeah we haven't done anything those for a long time we haven't done anything since um cincinnati,

and um it's going to kind of be interesting because one good thing about south

america is we don't obviously haven't played there um a couple of the places we've never played and,

and we've only played three shows down there ever so we can just you know basically

play we don't have to learn 70 pavements to relearn 70 payment songs you know not that,

not that they're immensely challenging but at the same time.

Track 3

[18:35] You know i basically could make the four set lists now

and um you know

we're you know it's not going to be you won't

be hearing um greenlander no but

uh you go with the uh you go with the

essentials not the deep cuts yeah and i think we've got i think i'm in a list

of 32 that i sent out to them about six six weeks ago oh that's good yeah sounds

all right well if i come into any money i'll see you in uh i'll see you in south

america but let us know yeah yeah let us know i But,

you know, times are tough.

Well, should we talk about track number, what is it? Track number 33 on the

countdown? Okay, that's pretty good.

All right, let's do it. Yeah, that's pretty good.

Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement.

Track 1

[19:32] Thanks for listening, and now on with a countdown. 33!

Track 3

[23:28] Okay, that was Transport is Arranged from the fourth record released February

11th, 1997, Bright in the Corners.

It's the third track on the album, and it's the sixth song from Bright in the

Corners that is on the countdown at this point.

So Bright in the Corners is representing the bottom portion of this top 50 so far.

Bob, what do you think about Transport is Arranged? Jamie.

I just think that, first of all, it's cool to hear that Bright in the Corners

got a lot of action, having a lot of love.

It is a very listenable pavement record. I love it.

And I think Transport is Arranged, when the record was made in Kernersville,

North Carolina with Mitch Easter,

was just kind of viewed and the feel around it was that, okay,

that's another song that definitely should be on the record.

Track 3

[24:33] Um but isn't the kind

of song that um it you

know maybe should be a single or something like that it was just it was just

a song that was like really solid and good and then as the song got played over

and over again on tour and over the years um i think it's become rather clear to me that,

you know, aside from kind of the more bubblegum-y songs on the record like Stereo and Shady Lane,

that it would have stood up as a truly special pavement song.

And I just think that it's, for the most part, an outstanding example of,

Of not only Stephen's songwriting ability and composing, but I just think it's

an unusually good set of lyrics.

I'm with you. When I think about like verse three, I swung my fiery sword,

I vent my spleen at the Lord.

He is abstract and bored, too much milk and honey.

Well, I'll walk through the wilderness with nothing but a compass and a canteen

setting the scenes. I mean, it just got this certain depth.

Track 3

[25:57] Of course, you know, I am the worst of my kind. I want to cremate the crush.

It's funny, some people think that that's crutch, but it's I want to cremate

the crush actually has a lot of personal importance to me because that's an

expression I used to use.

Track 3

[26:17] Really? Yeah, Cremate the Crush. I would actually say that that's a valid lyrical

contribution from my notebook that was usurped by Balchmus,

which he was more than welcome to do that.

That um cremate the crush was often used when one of your mates had um regardless of.

Track 3

[26:45] Gender orientation had fallen really really hard for somebody and it became

clear to yourself and everyone around that it wasn't going to work and it was a really bad idea.

Track 3

[26:58] And um so you had to pull your friend and that believe me that happens whether

you're You know, no matter how old you are, you know, sometimes you just,

um, I think we've all seen it in our lives.

We've seen people that fall really hard for the wrong person and rather than

just sit back and watch them go through a very vile, um, heartbreak,

um, an effort needs to be made to cremate the crush.

Um wow and that's the expression that i used um all right man like this is ridiculous

like because you see it all the time like yes obviously amongst my dude friends like dude man,

you're really barking up the wrong tree there you know

what i mean not yeah whatever whatever series of reasons um

but really transport is arranged um

as that song got played there's a a really unusually good

version of it really good recording and filming from an italian show that we

did um it's on youtube um oh i'll have to look that up mouth miss had really

really short hair um it was this really strange festival that i believe was

somewhere in the vicinity of venice um.

Track 3

[28:18] And it was one of these festivals that you turn up to in the early afternoon,

and the people are still, like, kind of making the stage, and you're sort of,

like, in this state of disbelief that any concert's actually going to happen there today.

And this was the vibe. We were just like, whoa.

Oh, you know, because usually it's like, you know, the Heineken banners are

already up and like, you know, the kids are already listening to,

you know, a band that sounds like Green Day and, you know, people are drinking

or you see the tent village.

This festival, it looked like they'd gotten the days wrong, and it was going

to happen two or three days, but somehow they whipped it all together,

and we played a very memorable version of Transport is Arranged.

Track 3

[29:13] And you know it pretty much became a staple of our

live show from the bright in the corners tour

forward um it's just has a good um mid-tempo vibe to it good lyrics good guitar

love the tone of his voice the tone of his voice is really like in a sweet spot,

i agree i just say to me it's just like a great pavement song it's always really relaxing um,

kind of in a grounded sort of way but like even more relaxing and like,

yeah i mean some people you know at times think that pavement doesn't rock and

then when we actually do rock we're just like pretending to be hardcore or pretending

to be like jokey metal or or something like that.

I actually feel like Transporter is arranged, if it's played with a proper punch,

kind of is truly a rock and roll song.

Oh, when you get to that, when you get past the solo and you guys all get into

it, it sounds so tight and it sounds.

Track 3

[30:23] Yeah, it sounds very tight and it sounds very rocky, you know,

like rock and roll. It rocks.

It's a great rock and song. it kind of stomps and but then it gets really mellow

it just has really really good dynamic and yeah I can tell you like whenever

I put it on a set list we don't,

We don't really start with it because it doesn't, you know, sometimes songs

with like kind of a very mellow lead in, it's not such a good idea.

But you can sort of stick it after anything kind of noisy.

Track 3

[31:00] And then, so then people can sort of like return to like sort of a serene vibe.

And then after a certain period of time, it kicks back in again.

So, um, I just love, um, I love that song and it's always a pleasure to see,

to put it on a list and see it coming up.

And, um, in fact, depending on who I'm talking to, if they've never heard Pavement before, um,

and I sort of get a general idea that they like rock music, then it's a song

that I would almost play first.

First um to sort of you

know give them a feel and then when i do play transporters

range they're like oh okay like yeah like 90s um

college rock or something and uh

yeah yeah which is fair special it's

more special than that but i i hear you you know

but i'm talking about complete newbiles they um

because if you play them something too

cute or i mean obviously

you know i'm in the horse racing profession and there's a lot of people that

you play father to a sister of thought and range life and other sort of country

tin songs because they you know would absolutely there's a lot of people i know

a lot of my friends um who know of pavement don't like pavement because.

Track 3

[32:26] It to them it sounds too harsh um you

know because a lot of people don't really have any punk rock background

right okay um they don't want to hear anything

like unfair or serpentine pad

or they don't want to hear anything medium fire lo-fi like debris slide or forklift

i mean like something like forklift just sounds like 13 year olds making a horrible

racket um to them like they don't see the cool in that you know yeah um you

know of course There's...

Track 3

[33:01] I mean, I haven't listened to it on vinyl in a long time, but Forklift,

you know, I remember it sounding kind of maniacal and frenzied in a very 1990s

sort of way, which was kind of cool.

But I can understand, but Transport Is Arranged kind of ticks all the boxes,

like Grounded would sound like kind of like too much, like a stoner type thing to people.

People um shady lane might sound kind of

like listless summer babes kind

of repetitive and some people might think like oh

you guys wanted to be nirvana or something

um which we certainly

did not um that didn't

look like much fun to me and uh but yeah no i just i just love the song and

i think that it's it should definitely not be a forgotten song transport is

arranged i think it It should be sort of at the forefront of anybody making

a mixtape or a tape of 10 to 15 pavement songs.

I like that. Yeah, it stands up. So then you would say on the countdown,

it's underrated at 33, right?

Yeah, and I would, I mean, for me, it would always be in my top five.

Top five? Holy shit, Bob.

Yeah, it would be in my top five.

Track 3

[34:26] Unquestionably top 10 But probably top 5 In fact people ask you know sometimes like,

You know, one lazy question by anybody is like, what's your actual favorite pavement song?

And, you know, when you say transport is arranged, you're not being entirely obvious.

And then if they've only heard 10 pavement songs or 15 pavement songs or just

the hits, then you're kind of forcing them to listen to a great pavement song

that they may have not heard before.

So it would unquestionably be in my top five um it's under four minutes i mean um,

i really am very much of the you know when it comes to a band that's a rock band in sort of the,

three minute form like pavement is i mean um you know my general belief.

Track 3

[35:23] Maybe it has to do with attention span or something like that but songs over

five minutes better be

pretty awesome for you to justify them being that

long agree um totally agree it's a

little pretentious brilliant right there's so

many great bands who have made so

many great songs and they just fall prey

to loving their groove so hard that

they do it one or two passes too many

and a song that

might have had like you know major appeal whether

it be like sort from a venom sense or from a sweetness

sense is just um loses

its effect if it's

got too much length so um i think

it weighs in under four minutes i think it's you know it's i think it's four

minutes are justified i don't think there's any wasted motion i think it's got

good dynamics and again one of malcolm's best sets of lyrics um you know and

i think you know obviously.

Track 3

[36:30] David and Stephen were both very good lyricists and, you know,

David's a poet. He was celebrated for it.

And I think that David, you know, was an influence on Stephen and sort of challenged

him from a lyric writing perspective and would get annoyed when Stephen was

being too lazy about lyrics.

And I think very much in, you know, the Stevens sense,

it's a unusually or just a very good set of lyrics from a lyricist who had at

that point very much found his way.

You know, something that had been sort of a discardable aspect of the band,

even to an extent through a lot of Slanted and Enchanted.

And then, you know, I mean, some people think that his lyrics are just garbled nonsense.

And to an extent, you know, by intent, they are, you know, fairly good.

Track 3

[37:44] Senseless but i mean you know i think of songs like um this song and from a

completely different era um lyrics like trigger cut um i just think that you

know he he's he does not get,

the he gets the respect he deserves as a guitar player but perhaps not as a

lyricist i think you know transport his range has both yeah i'd agree totally

agree what is the whole pillars of eight thing. Do you have any insight on that?

What's that? The pillars of eight. Do you have any insight on that?

No, no, no, I don't really have anything of that.

I think it probably has to do with, um, just, uh, you know, then you're falling into him.

Um, and I think you've probably seen some of his scrawlings and notebooks and stuff like that.

Um, you fall into him choosing

expressions and just simply sort

of loving words and how they look and

how they sound coming out of his mouth and then so

then using uh you know sets of a set of words like pillars of eight and putting

in a place where it's going to fit you know obviously that you know eight rhymes

with a lot a lot of things and fit you know i'm saying so yeah yeah you know he's.

Track 3

[39:06] When you're in a situation where not only are you going to have to write lyrics but,

you're going to also have them um

analyzed then i think that you force yourself to you know put a certain amount

of time into that process and i think throughout the course of um his entire songwriting history.

Track 3

[39:38] I think, you know, perhaps it's a bit freeing since Pavement ended that things

are a little bit less under the microscope.

Track 3

[39:47] But certainly in 1997, they, you know, were very much under the microscope.

In fact, this album, I remember getting really slammed by a writer at a major

music publication for the lyrics in Blue Hawaiian.

Um, they were actually misconstrued as sexist in, um, this, um,

particularly the line, the slap is a gift. Your cheeks have lost their luster.

Um, Oh my God. I would have never put that together.

I would have got there from that. You know, this slap is a gift.

I mean when I

mean then you know in some ways like um you could see how the journalist made

that point I suppose but I mean I yeah like you I never really thought along

those lines because maybe if you know the person and you know that they're not

like a misogynist creep then,

you don't even really think about them in that context but um perhaps um that

person did and I just remember, you know, when you write songs,

which I don't do, then you are just like any type of writer,

you are susceptible to...

Track 3

[41:10] To criticism and then you know then of course you've you've

reached a certain mantle when your lyrics are being picked

apart and every pick of you in detail is being brought to the fore um and but

that's like also a compliment that people you know care that much about what

you write that's um yeah but you know at the same time like you know some things that are almost

like unfathomable to a songwriter, um,

come to the, you know, come, come to the floor when, when people go over them with a fine tooth comb.

Um, but, uh, no, I've never really heard anybody moan about Brighton the Corners,

um, lyrics and, you know, maybe it's because it is like in the thirties.

Um, but I really don't think it should be a forgotten song.

I think that in some ways it's as good as Late Period,

and when I say Late Period, I would say albums four and five,

as good as Pavement was in terms of sounding like Pavement.

I mean, there isn't much of Terror Twilight,

which can be described as sort of typically pavement,

but there is on Bright in the Corners, and you definitely cannot describe a

song like Stereo as typically pavement.

Track 3

[42:40] So, yeah, no, pleasure talking about one of my favorite pavement songs, Jamie.

Me Bob it's been a pleasure talking to you period it always is anytime man I'm

basically just basking in the glorious winter sunlight here in Paris that's

spectacular yeah with my unmade bed,

And, um, I don't even know what I'm going to do.

I actually have to go grocery shopping, but yeah, a pleasure,

pleasure to talk to you and good luck with all of your endeavors.

And, uh, let me know if you need anything more from me.

Awesome. Thanks so much. Always, you know, uh, shall I remind you again that,

um, Steve West would probably be, you know, gladly help, um, help you out.

Oh, I'll ask him. Yeah.

He'll definitely do it. Cool. I can also hook you up with Rebecca if you want her to do one.

It would be cool. That would be really cool because then I could ask her that

question that you planted in my head.

Yeah, it'd be really good actually, because then, then you'd be the first,

um, prominent music journalist that tackled that question.

Track 3

[43:51] Anyways, love you, mate. And, uh, have, have a, have a great,

uh, Canadian afternoon and I'll, I'll, uh, pass on.

You've got all the Wes information, right? I do. Yeah.

Yeah. I'll pass on Rebecca's. Cool. Oh, all right. All right.

Take care of yourself and keep on flying the flag.

You betcha. All right. Enjoy yourself. My pleasure.

One more thing. Wash your goddamn hands.

Thanks for listening.

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