Eisha Tierney Armstrong—With The Rise Of AI, Professional Services Are Turning Into Products. Are You Ready?

On the Brink with Andi Simon

Hear how we can all embrace the notion of productization, not fear it

Today I bring to you an exceptional businesswoman and innovator whom I would also call a futurist, Eisha Tierney Armstrong. Eisha specializes in helping B2B companies transform their customized services into more scalable products. In other words, she helps them productize, which is also the title of her best-selling book. She shows businesses how to take a service that is delivered by people and standardize it, usually by automating it with technology. This is not to be feared, she says, but welcomed, because of the many possibilities it enables. Listen and share!

Watch and listen to our conversation here

Key takeaways from our discussion:

• B2B buyers are changing. They’re more comfortable buying products, not talking to people, doing all their research on the internet.
• The cultural attributes that make you a great professional services firm, like always knowing the answer to a client question, can actually get in the way of productizing. Because if you’re productizing and trying to innovate, you don’t necessarily know what the right answer is. You have to go out and learn and be open to failure and experimentation and not seeing failure as a bad thing.
• One of the cultural attributes that’s really important to do this successfully is the ability to learn and be open to change.
• People get afraid and they think, Am I going to lose my job? Am I still going to have value? How am I going to keep up with all the skills required? Those are very valid, important fears. But the most exciting thing about productization is the potential for growth. You can now grow faster than the rate at which you have to add headcount. You can serve new markets. You can impact more people and that can be very rewarding.
• We are at the precipice of a massive explosion in growth and if we focus on that, people will be more willing to embrace the change.

How to connect with Eisha

You can find Eisha on LinkedIn and her website Vecteris. You can also email her at [e-mail].

Want to learn more about preparing your business for the future, now? Check out these:

• Unlocking New Opportunities: Exploring Blue Ocean Strategy® To Understand Your Future Customers
• Navigating The Future: The Vital Need For Leadership Training In The Post-Pandemic Era
• Jennifer Kluge—Meet The Leader To Build Your Business Into One Of The Best And Brightest
• Byron Reese—How Humans Learned to See the Future, and You Can Too!

Additional resources for you

• My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
• Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD
• Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants

Read the transcript of our podcast here

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I’m Andi Simon. I’m your host and your guide. My job is to help you get off the brink. I’ve been doing this for almost 400 podcasts now, and it’s absolutely wonderful that you, our audience, keep enjoying it, sending us ideas about people whom we should interview and really celebrating the fact that you’ve gotten off the brink, picking up ideas from the people we bring to you to help you do something important for you to change. You need to see, feel, and think in new ways.

I always say you take your observations and turn them into innovations, and today is particularly interesting. For that reason, I have Eisha Armstrong here. Jennifer McCollum (who was on this podcast in August of last year) brought her to us and suggested we should have a conversation, particularly about the work she’s doing in the B2B world of professional services. But I think it’s important for you listening to her to see what she sees out in the market and how that could help you do better for yourself and your business.

Now, I must say, I listen to Amy Webb at SXSW and her video is just wonderful, and I watch it as many years as I can. But she is talking about the fourth industrial revolution coming now, and I would tell you that you cannot wait. It’s here. And that question is really important for you and your business.

So we’ll be weaving that in a little bit today as well. Who is Eisha? Eisha Armstrong is a co-founder and executive chairman of Vecteris. She’s dedicated to helping business-to-business companies transform their customized services into more scalable products. Prior to co-founding Vecteris, Eisha held Senior Product Leadership roles at the E.W. Scripps Company and at CEB, now Gartner, the world’s largest membership-based corporate performance research and advisory company. She has a best-selling book, Productize: The Ultimate Guide to Turning Professional Services into Scalable Products and her other book is Fearless: How to Transform a Services Culture and Successfully Productize. I think we’ll talk about productize today a bit. I’m delighted to have you here. I should thank you for joining me.

Eisha Armstrong: Well thank you, Andi, it’s a pleasure to be here.

Andi Simon: I am delighted you came back from Costa Rica in time for us to have a great conversation, although I have met with someone in Costa Rica for a podcast, so the world is very flat and small. Tell the audience about your own journey because you are at a point now that’s very timely and important for them to know about you and about what we’re going to talk about and Vecteris today. Who is Eisha Armstrong?

Eisha Armstrong: Well, thank you Andi. So I started my career, as you mentioned, at CEB, which was purchased by Gartner about eight years ago. As a data scientist right out of undergrad, of course we didn’t call them data scientists at the time, so my title was research analyst. But I was doing research on different corporate performance topics that were specifically focused on data analysis to uncover root causes of corporate performance, and I ended up spending a good 15 years of my career there, working my way up.

CEB sponsored me to go to business school, so I was fortunate enough to get my MBA while I was there and that moved me into a very early product management role. And at the time, the company didn’t have product managers. So we had to kind of define what that role meant, what that looked like, and learn from people in the software industry about what product management was. And by the time I left, I was leading a portfolio of products.

Fast forward to 2018, and I co-founded Vecteris with a former colleague of mine, specifically to help B2B professional services firms learn how to, as you mentioned, the title of my book, productize, which means taking a service that is delivered by people and standardizing it, usually automating it, with some form of technology. Perhaps, delivering it in a more scalable fashion, which tends to improve profit margins. If they’re selling, they can usually do that on a more subscription basis, which improves renewable revenue, and makes it easier to run their firms.

So we’ve been focused on that for the last six years,and as you mentioned, I published two books. I have my third one coming out later this year because my passion is really understanding what are the keys to being successful in this type of transformation. So I’ve focused a lot of my time now on researching that and then publishing those findings.

Andi Simon: So clarify for the audience, what professional services firms are.

Eisha Armstrong: Oh great question. So it could be anything from a law firm, an accounting firm, management consulting firm, training and development, HR services, engineering and architecture, IT services. But usually where you have professionals who are providing you with their expertise and their time in exchange for money, versus a product company, which is providing a kind of a prepackaged set of features and value, in exchange for money.

Andi Simon: And so we’re going to take the people part and somehow turn it into something that you can sell that could be accessed without necessarily as much people interface on it. And this has interesting implications both for the company producing it and selling it and those who are buying it and their expectations.

So I have a hunch that as you’ve gone through your six years into Vecteris now, I’m 23 years in business and I’ve watched many generations of changes come and go. This one is the most exciting for me because I do think it’s transformational.

But for a B2B company, my accounting firm client, for example, I’ve been working with for six years, what could they do to sort of productize something? Is there something you can sort of share with us that you’ve seen work particularly well?

Eisha Armstrong: Yeah. So we talk about productization in terms of different levels. The first level would just be what we call productized services, where they’re still delivering value through people. But perhaps the engagement of this accounting firm, let’s take an audit for example, is more standardized. So there’s a set of templates and tools that their professionals can use to deliver that audit the same way for every client. And perhaps they have different packages.

So rather than selling the audit engagement based on time and materials, we’re going to charge $500 an hour. They say the audit’s going to cost you $50,000 all in. If you want A, B, C type service, if you want to upgrade and get A, B, C plus D, then it’s going to cost you $75,000. So they’re doing kind of the same set of activities, the same way from client to client. They’re able to package it up and price it more on kind of value-based pricing versus time and materials pricing.

And there may also be some technology that their professionals are using in the background to help them deliver those engagements more efficiently. And perhaps generative AI is one of those technologies they’re using. But most of the interface with the client is still human-to-human. So that’s what we call productized services.

Then you have more products which are not services. They’re not delivered by humans. But, perhaps it’s a piece of software that the accounting firm has developed and that they install at their client to help them improve reconciliation between their accounting software and perhaps some type of inventory management system or something like that. And then they’re charging that client a monthly fee to license the software that this accounting firm has developed. And that would be an example of a product.

So software is an obvious example, but data could also be another example of a product. You know, perhaps the accounting firm has developed some proprietary data set and they want to license it to their clients. That could be a product. It could be an off-the-shelf kind of online training program that their clients go in and access and take online training. So there’s no human-to-human involvement in the delivery of it, but you still need humans for relationship development and account management and things like that.

Andi Simon: This is so interesting because when you productize it like other Microsoft products, it comes with annual updates and upgrades. I love your monthly fees for service and a support staff that is located maybe in the Philippines. So there’s all kinds of ways that you can now optimize the talent you have without simply adding more talent. Correct?

And this becomes a mind shift, if I know enough about enough of my professional service firms to know that their minds are about doing what they do now better, maybe cheaper, faster, but not by making it into a product per se, but by simply having more talent.

The pandemic gave them the options of having more attorneys who were remote, or more accountants who were remote. That sounded really unthinkable before the pandemic. And now it’s quite normal. But, now you’re talking about taking what we do and looking at it as a different thing. A product is different from a service. So we can talk about many of these things. One thing that you and I were sharing was that we must change the culture inside the firm and the firms that are using those services.

I don’t want to lose the opportunity in our conversation to talk about what that means as you move from people and services to a product and sales from a cultural point of view, and I have a hunch you’re seeing that. You and I can share some cases, but what are you seeing?

Eisha Armstrong: Yeah. Great question. So I think first of all, you have to take a step back and look at this as a fundamental transformation for most organizations. So if you’re, let’s say a law firm and now you want to also sell software alongside your legal services, this is a significant change because you’re not only having to think differently about how you create value, because it’s a little bit of a business model transformation, but you’re going to need new skills, new technical skills, skills that people are skilled in, lean product development or agile, for example.

It’s just kind of a different way of operating, and so if you think about your business model transformation, digital transformation, trying to become more innovative, fast-paced, that is a very different culture than a traditional law firm.

And some people may find that very threatening, especially if you’re saying, okay, we used to create value based on the expertise in Andi’s head. Well, Andi, now we’re going to create value based on the intellectual property of the entire firm that has been documented. Andi could deliver it or somebody else could deliver it. Or maybe it’s delivered digitally.

So we don’t even need a person like that who can be very threatening to people who’ve defined their entire careers based on my expertise is what creates value. And so that’s a big change. And I think it’s important for organizations to think about that before they embark on a product decision strategy.

Andi Simon: Have you seen any illustrative case studies you can share where they’ve done it well or where it blew up?

Eisha Armstrong: Oh, yes. Countless. So one is a management consulting firm that we’ve worked with now for several years. And they go in and they work with manufacturing companies, industrial companies, and their consultants created an algorithm to help manufacturers batch custom manufacturing jobs and do it in a more productive way. And their senior partners were like, we could turn this algorithm into a piece of software and we could sell it and we could productize it and wow, you know, multiples on software businesses are much larger than multiples on the consulting businesses like this. This is a great idea.

And we’re like, yes, there’s a great need. There was nobody else in the market doing this. They had the skill set. But let’s think about the culture change and what’s going to be required. So what they ultimately decided to do was to set it up as a separate organization and so they kind of insulated it from the primary consulting business. It had its own dedicated team that was fully funded full time working on this, this software product, not off the side of their desk.

They had different performance measures. They had a different name in the marketplace. So they weren’t using the name of the parent company to really distinguish that this is not just kind of a different way of delivering value, but it’s also a different culture. Yeah. And they’ve been quite successful operating this as kind of a separate business that still has the benefit of the strength of the balance sheet of the consulting firm, the client relationships where they’re able to feed them leads. They’re recognizing that it’s a significant difference in cultures and operating them as two separate businesses. So that would be a great success story.

Andi Simon: It is brilliant. But on their part, they understood that an artwork and a draft don’t necessarily come out with something better. This was different and needed a whole different model for it to be successful. That is a brilliant company with amazing leadership to understand that. So often we work a lot on observation to innovation, a lot of innovation that never gets out of the starting gate, mostly because they try to add it on to their current staff whose minds are in a whole different place.

You know, people say, what’s culture? I say, it’s what you do every day and believe it’s the way we should do it. Let’s not get too sophisticated here. But for those who are doing the service part, it is what we do every day. And for those who are developing the product, it has nothing to do with what we do every day. And unless you understand that you cannot succeed in prioritizing your services without a different way of doing that.

Eisha Armstrong: Absolutely. Yes.

Andi Simon: Now, with that in mind, as you’re talking, I’m saying, okay, now how are they creating these products and are they eliminating the service part or are they just rapid fast forward using, I don’t know, generative AI. What do you see happening on the productization part?

Eisha Armstrong: So we see a couple of different what we call archetypes. So the first one is, we are going to develop products that are bundled in with our services. I mentioned perhaps there’s a piece of software that’s installed alongside some consulting work that might be done and that’s sold as a kind of a single solution to a client.

Say, you have this problem. For example, you want to improve your ability to attract highly skilled talent. You need some consultants to come in and understand what type of skills you need. What might be preventing the organization right now from attracting that talent? But you might also need some compensation benchmarking data and you might need that to be updated monthly, and so it’s a mix of the kind of data technology that is delivering value.

And so we call that kind of the bundled solutions approach to productization. And I think it’s actually, Andi, a brilliant move for a lot of professional services firms because it leverages their existing competitive advantage, which is their service professionals and the existing relationships that they have with clients. So they’re bundling those products along with that.

The other option might be like this management consulting firm that decided to kind of run it as a separate business because what they found is that the manufacturers that were interested in the software product were actually different from the manufacturers that they worked with on their consulting engagements. So it was an entirely new market. And that also fed into their decision to run it as a separate business because it really didn’t make sense to bundle the two, given they were separate markets who were interested in the services versus interested in the software product.

And then the third archetype is where you decide you’re going to fully sunset being a services business, and you’re going to transform to be a 100% products business that is less common. And when we do see it, it’s usually with younger professional services firms who start offering professional services. They uncover a great need that they can meet with a product and aren’t yet at the level of maturity where it doesn’t make sense to sunset the services business. They can kind of eat that cost and transform and become a full products business. So those are the three different archetypes that we see.

Andi Simon: So let me repeat them back. The first one bundles it, and the second one is segregated, and the third one is young and can see opportunities and aren’t so wedded to the way we’ve always done it here that they can reinvent themselves.

Eisha Armstrong: Correct. Yes.

Andi Simon: And I love to summarize what you’ve said, because for the listener, Eisha has said some very important things. There isn’t a single way that you can take what you do. So don’t look at it as a thing. Begin to think about it. And I think it’s very important outside in, it isn’t. What you do is what a customer does and which customer wants or needs for this manufacturing service provider. Some of their customers probably are older and are much more set in their ways and are happy to talk to people. And younger may be very unhappy talking to people.

I had one logistics company and their salespeople couldn’t get the people they used to talk to to answer the phone. They were still doing calls. And when I interviewed the folks who they thought would be their buyers, they had retired. And the new folks who had come in were all 30 somethings who said to me very quietly, we don’t use the phone.

And I say that because the point is that times are changing fast, and the people in the times, they are changing fast and so assume nothing. You’re in a startup mode. It’s a whole new time for reinvention. Both of them have an understanding of what the new clients need because they’re younger too, in many cases. You know, let’s stop being angry about the fact that Gen Z is the largest workforce. And let’s figure out how to work with them to change it.

Now, what’s interesting from just the lifespan of some of these products, they’re startups in many ways now. Are they aggressively now elevating them to the next stage, or are they so happy they got a product? I was curious about how people see things. Got it, got the product. Now what? What do you see?

Eisha Armstrong: So let’s say we’re working with a company who’s noticing the same changes that you’re talking about. B2B buyers are changing. You know, they’re more comfortable buying products, not talking to people, doing all their research on the internet. They are more comfortable buying things on a subscription basis. Plus, they also see shifts in the competitive landscape.

You have digital first startups who are saying this, solving the same problem that services companies used to solve. Plus, you have generative AI. Lots of things are changing and your labor force is getting more expensive. Wouldn’t it be nice if you could grow and not have to add headcount at the same rate? So all of these things might lead a business leader to want to productize.

And the first thing we talk about is, okay, this is a different way of thinking. Usually what you want is a portfolio, just like if you were a venture capitalist, because some of your product ideas are going to be home runs and some are going to be stinkers, and you don’t really know right now which idea is going to be which. You may have some assumptions and hypotheses that we can go out and test and validate, but you don’t have a crystal ball that’s going to give you the answer.

So let’s think about this as a portfolio. What are some quick one things that are lower investment? Perhaps you’ve already validated because a couple of clients have asked for this and even helped pay for some of the R&D. They are really easy to bundle with your existing services or serve your existing clients. And then what are some of these moonshot ideas where there’s perhaps more investment required over time, but perhaps much more value and potential. And what are some steps that we can start to take today to test and research and validate some of your hypotheses about those moonshot ideas.

And then let’s come back either monthly or quarterly, and look at the performance of this portfolio of product ideas and see how it’s doing. Are our assumptions correct? If so, add a little bit more investment, just like a venture capitalist would. Or did we invalidate some of our hypotheses and realize that some of these great ideas are actually stinkers and we need to stop investing in them, sunset them, and put our efforts elsewhere.

Andi Simon: I laugh listening to you because that requires a completely different mindset that detaches you from the products themselves. They aren’t about you. I once taught at Washington University a course for entrepreneurs, and I brought in some entrepreneurs and they left some lasting things in my head. And one guy said, Well, I built three businesses. Some worked, some didn’t.

It requires a detached relationship with that product, because it isn’t that you didn’t have a good idea. Some work, some don’t. So what? Move on. Right. But you need to have an open mind about what is working and be wise enough to know how to redirect investment as if you’re your own investor as opposed to the runner of the business. And that changes the whole relationship.

Even with each other and with a client and that’s a maturity that could come in youth, but it requires a different sense of what this product is and how it operates. And what do I mean to it? And how am I almost like a business school case study as opposed to a real life thing? Does that make sense?

Eisha Armstrong: It does. Absolutely. It’s really interesting, Andi, because we talk to professional services firms, leaders, and say, look, the cultural attributes that make you a great professional services firm, like always knowing the answer to a client question, can actually get in the way of productizing. Because if you’re productizing and trying to innovate, you don’t necessarily know what the right answer is. You have to go out and learn and be open to failure and kind of experimentation and not seeing failure as a bad thing. So you’ve got this on the one hand, a cultural attribute of knowing that has made you a great professional services firm is now going to get in the way of learning and experimenting.

Andi Simon: And I’ll put a pitch in for, again, an anthropologist to go out to those clients while you’re introducing these things and observe. You have no idea how many times I work with clients who have launched products and assume they know how their customers are using them, and then I go, and I often love to take them with me, because if I see and they don’t, they won’t believe me. So I take them along and I say, Be an anthropologist, just hang out, watch.

And they get shocked by the fact that this wonderfully complex thing that their engineers over-engineered isn’t being used at all the way they thought, and they usually see one little piece of it so that it serves their purpose as opposed to the overarching complex services that they have productized without calling it that. But this is what they did.

And it is interesting to me how we cannot see the world through our own eyes. You kind of look backwards. You know what’s going on with the customer who think they gave you a good question to answer, and you answer that question, but it was the wrong question. It really had nothing to do with what they really needed.

And I often find that particularly when the question has come down through a company and a more junior person has come to find a solution, only to realize they didn’t really know what the question was that was being asked way up the line. And as a result, they come back with an answer that doesn’t match. It’s the old telephone game. It is so interesting.

So you are in a moment of watching these companies potentially transform themselves, not quite putting the services sector out of business, but transforming the whole business. This is really cool stuff. We have a few more minutes, and I want to just talk briefly about the training and skill development. Are you finding them beginning to understand that they have to rethink the training and skill development of their teams?

Eisha Armstrong: Oh, absolutely. I mentioned, for example, one of the cultural attributes that’s really important to do this successfully is the ability to learn. So one of the skill sets that you could look for are people who have kind of a hypothesis-based research background: could be from hard sciences, social sciences, but people who are used to developing hypotheses, testing them and being somewhat removed in terms of the outcome. So they’re dispassionate about that and try to put on their scientist hat as the great organizational psychologist Adam Grant calls it and be open to changing their mind. So that’s one that’s very important.

Another one is, the ability to do what we call: think from a market segment standpoint. So market-minded, because professional services companies have been thinking very 1:1. What does Andi Simon need? Okay. I’m going to go and deliver exactly what she needs. Now you’re thinking about, what is a market segment that is similar to Andi Simon. What does this entire market segment need and how can we deliver something of value that meets maybe 80% of their needs, but not 100% of their needs? And that’s a very different way of thinking.

Usually people who’ve done market research, you mentioned ethnographic research, people perhaps who have a finance background, can think about market segments, attractive market segments, market needs, things like that. And then the third one, which we can’t forget, is digital literacy. And I say the word literacy very deliberately because often we think, oh, we need to go out and hire software engineers. And I’m like, no, that’s digital fluency.

I just want everyone in the organization to be digitally literate. Knowing kind of what are the tools out there and how could we use these in our day to day work would be digital literacy. And it’s really shocking how many organizations we get brought into, Andi, where the leadership team is saying, we’re going to make these investments in technology, we’re going to productize, and there are people on the leadership team who have very, very low digital literacy. So they’re not modeling that behavior for the rest of the organization.

Andi Simon: The rest of the organization says, okay, you show me first and then I’ll change, because change is literally pain. You know, we specialize in helping organizations and the people inside them change. And one thing the listeners should remember is your brain hates me. It hates to think about something in a new way. It doesn’t like the energy it needs to learn something. The oldest reptilian part of the brain, the amygdala, hijacks it. It says, go away. I’m going to hate you. I’m going to flee you. I’m going to fight you. I’m going to appease you, but I’m not going to change. And that’s just the way your brain works. It’s there to protect you from all this foreign stuff coming at you called digital literacy.

But it is a time where you probably should rethink your thinking and change your mindset. This has been such fun. You should give the audience 1 or 2 or 3 things you don’t want them to forget, because they often remember the ending better than the beginning. And we’ve had a nice beginning and I’ve enjoyed our conversation. A couple of things you want them to remember.

Eisha Armstrong: I think the biggest one, and you just brought it up, is that when we start talking about things like generative AI, the fourth industrial revolution, perhaps reducing the amount of services and delivering products, people get afraid and they think about, Am I going to lose my job? Am I still going to have value? How am I going to keep up with all the skills required? And yes, those are very valid, important fears to talk about.

But the most exciting thing about all of this is the potential for growth. I mean, imagine again, if you’re a B2B professional services firm, you can now grow faster than the rate at which you have to add headcount. You can serve new markets. You can impact more people and that can be very rewarding, not only from a financial standpoint, but also just from the personal reward that you get out of your work every day.

And so the one thing that I try to stress with the executives that I work with is, let’s talk about the opportunity rather than the change required. You know, yes, there is going to be change required, but that makes people afraid. And instead, let’s paint that vision and talk about the growth opportunity.

How can jobs become more rewarding? How can we serve more people? That’s what I truly believe. We are at the precipice of just a massive explosion in growth and if we talk about that, I think people will be more willing to embrace the change.

Andi Simon: I hope so. I know you’re a research person by background. Have you started to collect the number of services firms that have productized? Is there any Gartner research that says, hey, guys, you know, of all of those, I don’t know why percent have already started to productize. You’re running late in the process. Any idea?

Eisha Armstrong: Yeah, it’s nine out of ten, so 90%. And again, that could be very early productized services where they’re standardizing tech-enabled delivery of their services. But it’s still kind of looks and feels the same way to the client all the way up to creating new separate software businesses. But yeah, nine out of ten organizations. And yeah, if you’re not doing it yet, you are massively behind.

Andi Simon: I’m laughing. And that doesn’t matter whether you’re an attorney or management consulting firm, anything that is people-based is ready to be rethought. Not that the people are wrong or bad, but that the solutions to the problems are not going to necessarily be delivered by you and I talking about it. And I’m not going to say maybe I could have done this, but I was kidding around with my physician the other day and I said, your portal is so good. One day I’ll just have it take a picture of my body and I’ll tell me how my vital signs are. And he said, that’s not so far away. And I said, it’s not. Everything’s going to be productized. It’s very exciting. Well, this has been such fun. I should thank you. Where can they reach you? What’s your website?

Eisha Armstrong: It’s Vecteris.com. And I love to connect with people on LinkedIn, so feel free to also connect with me on LinkedIn: Eisha.Armstrong.

Andi Simon: It’s been a pleasure. And thank you. And thank you, Jennifer McCollum, for introducing us. And I think we should do a follow up in six months to see what we have seen and what’s working well, and you’ll have your third book out and I’d love to celebrate with you.

It’s very cool stuff for our listeners and our viewers. Thank you for coming. As you know, we like to take observation and turn it into innovation. And as an anthropologist, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. If you have not spent a day in the life of your customer, it’s time, because they may be prioritizing already, leaving you behind in the process, but you don’t really know what they’re thinking until you go and just hang out. They say, what does an anthropologist do? We hang out and we listen to the things that you can’t see because they can’t even tell you what they’re doing. So watch them and begin to think about what that means for you.

My books are all on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, the topic for this podcast, has won awards and been a bestseller, and people show it to me on the beach, wherever they’re reading about how anthropology can help their business grow. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is about 11 women who did just that. And our newest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, all of whom have simply said, of course they can and have done extremely well, and their wisdoms are very wise for all of you men and women.

And we’ve developed a program, we’ve productized the book into a program to help corporations and CEOs begin to think about how to harness the wisdom of women to optimize their business. And as an anthropologist, I was reading Gregory Beaton’s work about how everything is the opposite. You know who you are by what you’re not. And so maybe we should start seeing the benefits of difference as opposed to worrying about being identical. And I couldn’t agree more.

It’s time for rethinking what we’re trying to do with the talent that we have. It’s been great fun. Thank you all for coming. I’m going to say goodbye to Eisha Armstrong. Thank you for joining me today. It’s been a pleasure. Goodbye, everybody. Come again. See you now. Bye bye.

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