Partnering with AI in a Human(e) Way

The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, Sarah speaks with Marc Winn about how AI and automation can enhance human interactions and support meaningful connections when used with the right intentions.

They explore the impact of AI on marketing and the workforce, reflecting on how businesses can shift from manipulation to empowerment.

Together, they discuss the ethical implications of AI, the role of marketers in creating positive and healing stories, and how heart-centered entrepreneurs can embrace technology to build community, foster trust, and stay present amidst rapid change.

This episode is a thoughtful guide for those looking to partner with AI in a human(e) way.

Here's what they talked about in today’s episode:

• How AI and automation can enhance human interactions and marketing, and the importance of using these technologies with the right intentions to support meaningful connections.
• The impact of social media, AI, and automation on the workforce, questioning the future of employment and the potential for a reevaluation of what we sell and how we find meaning in our work.
• The ethical implications of AI, particularly in marketing, and the need to shift from manipulating people's subconscious drivers to empowering them.
• The role of marketers in creating positive, hopeful stories that inspire deep connection and trust, viewing marketing as a form of healing.
• The concept of mutual exchange in business and how businesses can foster connection and community while leveraging technology like AI.
• How businesses and individuals can build optimism and focus on creating something better amidst the rapid technological changes.
• The importance of focusing on the present and using AI to create deeper connections, rather than amplifying attention-seeking behavior.

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Parterning with AI in a Human(e) Way

Intro with music NEW 2022: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing.

Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane.

marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing.

Sarah: Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode of the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership. We're partnering with AI. Yes. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane [00:03:00] Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.

marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. Before I introduce my guest today, just another reminder that if you're playing with the idea of writing a business book about change, you might want to consider looking at my Business Book Alchemist program.

I'm only running this once per year, and not sure if I'll run it again next year unless I'll write a fourth book. I'm finishing my third book with this cohort, and in the eight weeks that we have together, we'll refine your big message. Get clear on your ideal reader. Then build a solid outline for your book and also create a marketing plan for it.

The program starts on [00:04:00] November 14th and lasts officially for 8 weeks. I'm saying officially because with last year's participants, we're still meeting monthly in the BBA book lab to hold each other accountable with our writing. It comes with recorded video lessons, so homework, a workbook as well, But also live calls where we connect and have time to really exchange on our big message and the book writing.

So check out the details. If you're interested at humane. marketing forward slash BBA and book a call to talk to me about whether this is a good fit for you. All right, back to today's episode. So my guest today, Mark Nguyen, is a dedicated guide and mentor, helping individuals and organizations navigate the complexities of our modern world.

With a focus on fostering innovation, [00:05:00] building social capital, and nurturing a sense of togetherness, Mark's work is transforming communities and inspiring countless people to reach their full potential. I Mark is the co founder of the Dandelion Foundation, an initiative aimed at creating a better future by leveraging the unique strengths of small island states.

He is also the mind behind the 50 Coffee Adventure, a project that encourages meaningful connections and conversations to drive social change. So join us as we dive into Mark's insight on human centered AI adoption and his vision for a more connected and innovative world. Here's a summary of what we talked about in this episode, how AI and automation can enhance human interactions and marketing.

and the importance of using these technologies with the right intentions to support meaningful connections, the impact of social [00:06:00] media, AI and automation on the workforce, questioning the future of employment and the potential for re evaluation of what will sell and how we find meaning in our work.

The ethical implications of AI, particularly in marketing and the need to shift from manipulating people's subconscious to empowering them. The role of marketers in creating positive, hopeful stories that inspire deep connection and trust, viewing marketing as a form of healing. The concept of mutual exchange in business and how businesses can foster connection and community while leveraging technology like AI, how businesses and individuals can build optimism and focus on creating something better amidst the rapid technological changes, the importance of focusing on the present and using AI to create deeper connections rather than [00:07:00] amplifying attention seeking behavior.

What's funny is that it is only after the episode finished recording that we found out how to apply AI in the form of a background noise cancellation on Mark's Zoom account. I did my best and used all the AI tools I know to make the sound experience as pleasant as possible. But if you do hear some background noise, just appreciate the humanness of this episode.

Let's dive in.

video1863576471: Hey, Mark, so good to see you again. You already had a good laugh,

Off, off recording. So I'm sure this is going to be a, a fun and hopefully also inspiring conversation for, for people listening. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast.

Thanks

Sarah: for having me.

Yeah, it's a delight. Always a delight talking to you and, and like Rachel shout out to Rachel if she's listening, cause she's the one who introduced you having me.

The other way around and, and I [00:08:00] really, she, she told me like, Oh, every time I talk to Mark, it's like blows my mind. I'm like, Oh, cool. I want to talk to him. So we did. And now here we are talking about AI and human and whether that, you know, there's anything ethical about that. So yeah, let's dive right in.

If you're. open to that?

Marc: Yeah, I suppose probably the place to start is kind of what really the moment of realization for me that, that we needed to start having deeper conversations about it. Think I, I ended up in Silicon Valley maybe 11 years ago at a place called Singularity University, which was a place that teaches people about all of the crazy technology that's now arriving and the fact that it was going to arrive far faster than we realize.

And so I learned about all of these crazy, fabulous, amazing tools. And it blew my mind. And it took me seven days to get to sleep [00:09:00] again after kind of hearing about the craziness that's arriving. And I was getting the plane home and I stayed in San Francisco the night before, after doing it. I, I I was walking past the Twitter head office.

And or near in that area. And I just was thinking that there were tens of millions of dollars being raised to deliver food to that building. 10 minutes faster or three minutes faster or something like that. But meanwhile, there were people homeless outside for drug addiction and things like that. And I started to really question and this is at the forefront of innovation and technology and things like that.

And yet, and all of this money going into stuff, but right outside, there was stuff that really mattered that Was being left behind and so I think for the past decade a lot of my focus has really been around how do we bring together this very kind of human world with this [00:10:00] extraordinarily incredible possibility in a way that we don't get some of the unintended consequences of our actions and how does governance itself. Do you know, how do we regulate all of that? And how do we realize that the, the solutions may be arriving in different silos to the ones where we're currently managing for them. And there's, you know, there's some very, very smart people doing some unwise actions. Things in the world.

And so in this world of artificial intelligence you know, there's a deeper call for artificial wisdom, maybe, or birth of wisdom. And so, you know, a lot of my work in the last decade is really about, you know, the intersection of where humanity meets technology. And this idea of something new feels like it's being born and and many of our old systems are [00:11:00] collapsing under the scaling complexity of, of, of the era we're in and and, you know, deep down, we all feel like something isn't right. And, you know, I used to be a marketer myself you know, I know this is a marketing community and a direct marketer, you know, really focused on data driven insight and conversion and all the kind of standard of marketing stuff, but, but essentially underneath it all, we were kind of using people's subconscious to, drivers and fears to manipulate them into our desired outcomes.

And I started to realize, well, you add AI to that, infinite power and superhuman persuasion. And at the time, 11 years ago, I saw things like Cambridge Analytica. I saw things like Trumpism arriving before Trump even arrived. And ultimately that's the whole world trying to manipulate other people. To do what they want to do rather than what is in our [00:12:00] individual best interests, you know, be it The amount of time we're on screen time having all these amazing behavioral scientists and neuroscientists leveraging Ever more powerful tools to get to do things that aren't necessarily Thriving be it the newspapers pulling us in with huge headlines or clickbait or all of this kind of thing and so I felt that my own gifts were part of the problem When I started to think about the amplification of of what what I know.

So many ways. I started to move away from. You know, manipulating others into empowering others to to. To be in their own wisdom and to do things in their individual and collective best interests. And then how do you actually build a mode of governing ourselves from that place? So yeah, I'm 10, 11 years into that process and I probably have more questions than answers.

But these are incredible, amazing tools that do we have the wisdom to use? To use them wisely. [00:13:00]

Sarah: Yeah. I think that, that really is the big question, right? Because like you, I'm fascinated by the intersection of the human versus the artificial intelligence and people are sometimes quite surprised because I talk about all things human marketing, like we're human selling, like we're human.

I'm writing my third book business, like we're human. And, and yet. To me, artificial intelligence is an integral part. That new paradigm that I love to talk about because in my view, it actually helps us to be, or to go back to be more human. And so I guess I would like to have your perspective on that as well, because right now there's two opinions.

The one that says, well, AI or chat GPT in marketing is, is just there to dehumanize. everything and [00:14:00] it dehumanizes the interactions and it dehumanizes the, the, the, the messages. So is that true or is there another way to use AI to actually, you know, make that humanness come out in a different way?

Marc: So it's all about intention for me. Like the same tool used with misaligned intention. Can deliver vastly different outcomes. And so it's like, it's not really the tool that's the problem. So if I'm using it, I need to create more time that I can pay, spend time with another human being in deep care and deep love, and that is a tool being used to support my humanness, just like zoom is being used right now to have this conversation.

It's like, you know, this is the one that says this is an artificial conversation because we brought two humans together. Together that otherwise wouldn't have the time to be able to reach each other and so You know [00:15:00] like like all things it could be used to separate or to connect. It can And so and really it's around what is the intention that these tools are being used for so, you know Say we've got this we've got airline here in my community.

It's under Lots of stuff. It's kind of breaking because planes are not going right and the customer service is really Bad because they can't scale to a crisis. And so you couldn't employ enough humans to be human, right? And well actually if you've got systems that can expand and scale and And communicate in a human like way that can support people When they need it in an emergency when you can't provide humans And the current alternative is to be a robot and not available then And people being struggling at airports and all of this Kind of stuff and in crisis and not knowing what to do and all of this kind of stuff but if you've got an Intelligence system that can solve every problem rather than if you press button five And then button three and then about two you [00:16:00] can solve this particular problem, which isn't the problem.

I'm really wanting a

It's an act of care to provide a tool that meets people's needs. It's an act of love to design a system that cares, even though you're using technology. You know, so for me, I have this I'm a huge proponent of using systems from a place of love, care, and connection. And you know, AI is like magic. If used in the right way with the right kind of, you know, Emotion.

Sarah: It leads me automatically to the next question, which is, well, are humans ready for that tool? You know, because if we're saying it's a great tool with the right intention, then maybe what we need to work on is the intention because the tool is already smart enough.

So it's the intention that we actually need to work on. And so how [00:17:00] do we, how do we work on that? How do we get humans ready to use the tool with the right intention?

Marc: Well, it's not only using it, but it's also about how susceptible are you to manipulation? You know, so like if you have loads of subconscious fears or stories and things like that, it opens you up to people using superhuman persuasion to, to, you know, if you have a fear of death, you're much more likely to be sold health products and all this kind of stuff.

So in many ways the inoculation is, you know, what I always say, you should actually teach kids. about marketing and behavioral science, not because to get them to manipulate other people with it is so that they become more aware of what's driving the bus when most messaging is subconscious. And. Yeah, and so, you know, there's this, I think most of us have been through that aging process where we get wiser as we get older.

[00:18:00] And that's kind of the shift in consciousness we go through as we evolve during, you know, our lives and humanity has to go through. a real shift for it to Be able to build systems in a way that don't have those consequences So you look at something like facebook or smartphones and things like that We can see all around us that this death of a thousand cuts has happened where everybody's just living in this kind of screen Like every single one of the thousands and thousands of decisions that went into that was probably made sense Logically and smartly but somehow we've ended up in a place where we're All in the same room but disconnected from each other.

And so it's like you know, we've accidentally lost ourselves and we can see that with climate change or like with something like that you know, like can you really solve a problem like climate change without Without understanding that over consumption [00:19:00] Is a maybe a self worth issue like, you know, am I enough, you know?

Or do I need more to To be someone and recognizing that, you know, these tools are manipulating that Sense of not enough and then how do you how do you how do you market pay a bill? when Your whole business model requires people to consume more even though it may not be in their best interest And so that interesting gap between wants and needs You and how do we, how do we, how do we get technology to support us what we really need rather than what we can be manipulating to wanting and I, you know, I kind of always look at what, say, how billionaires operate.

Themselves, you know they'll a lot of them have an amazing assistant that is like the world's best ad blocker, you know You know what I mean? They don't really need to use the internet themselves or anything like that because it'll be facilitated and [00:20:00] so we kind of you know need to look at those kind of tools and stuff that we can build which are you know, the wise owl that sits on people's shoulder and and supports people, to choose the higher selves in moments of You of kind of manipulation.

So I think it's an extraordinarily interesting time to be a builder that cares. I think there's never been a better time to you, to develop kind of technology with wisdom and technology that can bring us together and technology that can create magic and wonder and all of these kinds of things.

But also there's, there's never been a better time to create lots of unintended, Consequences.

Sarah: Yeah, I think that's the issue that I have is that we don't have enough examples of good people using AI right now. And that's why there's so much fear because people look at the. Not so good examples, [00:21:00] you know, the, the, the, the LinkedIn bots putting, you know, AI chat, GPT messages and spamming people and things like that.

And so they're like, you see, you know, that's what AI is going to do. It's going to dehumanize everything because the good people, I'm just putting the two of us in the good people side, you know, there's not, you haven't seen

Marc: me on a bad day.

Sarah: But I'm just saying, there's not enough people who, who talk about doing business for good, who are also saying, yeah, but AI can be actually really good if we use it with the right intention.

That's what I'm seeing.

Marc: So a LinkedIn bot, I'm like, why wouldn't you use a LinkedIn bot to spread delight and wonder and mischief? You know, I was thinking about developing a belly laugh app the other day, just to, just to send belly laughs to people and things like that. You'd [00:22:00] be really good at that.

Yeah. Record yours. Yeah. And it's just like, well, why would you automate something that would bring joy, laughter, and kindness? So, you know I think a friend of mine, Nipun Mehta, who does a lot of stuff around AI and wisdom, highly recommended stuff, and he's like, what about the seven viral virtues, you know, and how do you actually get to that?

technologies to support the virality. I, you know, again, it's, it's like, I love the idea of a LinkedIn bot that just makes people laugh and, and, and it's about value, right? Yeah, you see a lot of these LinkedIn bots and it's all about what can I get? What can I get? And then sometimes it's a bit lazy and and it's like, Literally, it's like, I'm a human being.

Why would I even respond to that? It's not even clever. Exactly. Well, that's what I

Sarah: mean by bad examples, right? But it doesn't

Marc: mean you can't be, you can't use the same technology and genuinely be clever and funny. [00:23:00] And well, but humor is my Brand essence and things like that mischief and playfulness.

I'm not going to design something using these tools I'm not afraid of using these tools which kind of but I I would use them that really spread the essence of me to find That kind of deep resonance with other people, but you've also got to say well look if everybody used those tools which is increasingly getting easier and easier to do.

We just break every social platform. There's so much noise, like the information overload right now is, is getting exponentially worse. And so, you know, to even get connection, you know, the depth of connection that has two people trust each other enough to work together. You know, that isn't going to come from the scaling the shallow, right?

You know, that's, there's, you know, there's a reason why I kind of wrote a book on having coffee and, and teaching people to have coffee was, I think, in a world of ever increasing shallowness and scale, the ability to go deeper is kind [00:24:00] of the social network raster class. So, you know, I've had 10, 000 coffees in the last decade because I didn't think the other stuff would, would work that well as the noise did.

You know, because everyone's like me, me, me, me, me, me, me with all this technology and amplifying the need for attention when, you know, and, and what we really want is the need for connection. And then when you, if you start with the premise on, okay, how do we use technology to support depth and trust an emotional connection.

I think we build very different things. And that's the paradox

Sarah: for me, that that really is the paradox. And that's why I believe that AI is actually helping us to create more spaciousness, to have time for those coffee chats. Yeah. Because right now people don't have the time. They're like, I don't have the time to talk to someone for 45 minutes.

I have all these things to do. We have all these, this busy work [00:25:00] that we keep doing. Especially as entrepreneurs, often it's not even paid work, right? It's just like all these marketing messages and content plans and all of these things. And that's where AI is actually really good at helping us create that, if we even need to create that.

I'm all about questioning our assumptions as well. Like, do we even need to create all that love? So yeah, people want depth more, right? And so that's what AI helps us create. create this more spaciousness to then spend time on a thousand coffee chats. And that's where the humanness comes back.

Marc: And we're also going to realize that the world we're moving into is very different.

You know, the idea of free intelligence, free energy, free labor, if we And like making money is something, you know, capitalism itself starts to break down in the next [00:26:00] decade or two as a result of if you draw the line of where all of this is going, because we're automating parts of our process today.

But you know, you add a humanoid robot to that kind of thing and like everything can be done All needs can be provided and things like that with that kind of technology that's arriving And so it's like what are we selling when there's nothing to sell and how do we make? We have no needs that can't be met by you know The robots and the ais and all of that and the free energy Around us, right?

And so Yeah

Sarah: Yeah, that's huge. Like, yeah, what do we sell anymore? How

Marc: do we find meaning in that process? Which, you know, I'm kind of the global conversation around meaning is, you know, around me since that WikiGuide diagram went around the world and things like that, that are responsible. There's a crisis of meaning.[00:27:00]

Happening in the world right now. In in many age groups as people are trying to reconcile where, where do they fit in, you know, as the world is changing very rapidly and the old stories of who we are are moving in. And so, how do you find. Intrinsic motivation to when your old identities kind of dissolve, you know because, you know, we are more than our jobs or who we are with something deeper, but that process of discovery of who we are and what we find joy in when the workplace is going to radically change, it is changing.

And how do we, yeah it's just like a. It's a very kind of strange time to be alive, you know, we're all kind of going through a process of death and rebirth, whether we like it or not. And it's like yeah, the need for attention to pay the bills is a kind of temporary state that I think we'll have to raise questions about whether we need to do that.

To do that anymore. And [00:28:00] then, and I always kind of say to my wife and it's like, vague, it's like, when the robots come out, you know, our marriage is what's left.

Let's work on that bit, you know, rather than understanding the importance of all of these tasks that need to be done in everyday family life. And and likewise, you know, when the robots come and, and who you are, And AI comes, who you are is what's left out of all of this stuff is done. It's like, what would you do when nobody is looking just for the sake of the joy of doing it? That's, that's

Sarah: really interesting. Cause it in the, in this new book Business Like We're Human, I basically feel that we have to work on our relationship with work right now. Yeah. I think that is for the next five or so years. That is our main thing because also of you know what's going to come but for [00:29:00] me also because if we want to run businesses like we're human well right now we're working all the time and that that's not human or humane.

But then also to To tie back into climate, the climate crisis and all these other crisis we have right now, we cannot solve those if we're constantly working to pay our bills. So we need to free our time for creative thinking, for just, you know, being human again so that we can tackle those and, and probably AI will help us with that as well.

But I do believe that as humans, we need to redefine who we are. When we're not working, that is kind of like the question of the of the decade. I feel like, like, who are we if, if we're not working, if we're not defined by our work, because I, yeah, I didn't take it as far as the robots coming, but yeah, that's where we're going, right?

Marc: Yeah. Whether it's

Sarah: robots or AI or [00:30:00] whatever it is.

Marc: Yeah. And it's like, what are we, what painting do we paint with that? We've kind of grown up with many kind of dystopian views of, Of what the world can be with that and I'm I'm more hopeful than that. But also recognizing that in in business terms I think about capital flows during that kind of period.

And, you know, if we think about, you know, say the Holy Grail is in 10, 20 years or whatever, or 30 years, depending on your understanding at 40, 50, a hundred years or whatever, and you say, okay like how much money needs to flow to create a world of human thriving within planetary boundaries, you know So the energy system needs to change the health system needs to change all of these kind of things And so huge amounts of money Needs to move to facilitate that transformation.

So I you know, I don't really like we need money to end money I kind of always say and it's like [00:31:00] I think it requires the best marketers the the best businesses the to You you know, to shift all of the resources from this kind of extracted deficit, extractive deficit based world that is around human coping to you know, this regenerative asset based world around human thriving that will unlock more wealth than we can ever imagine.

Imagine to the point that wealth becomes pointless. So I don't really necessarily think it's an either or Thing it's not something we need to create time with our jobs to then have something else I think we'll see exploding industries and businesses that come from people who care that want to build something human with all these great tools That actually are unafraid to make money in the process of doing it because they, they're willing to inspire people to be hopeful and to move to another world.

And and you, you see all sorts of brands starting to emerge that, that, that [00:32:00] attract lots of resources because, you know, I, it's not an either or thing. Like there's, you know but it's, it's messy, you know, going from caterpillar to butterfly and I, I don't necessarily have all the answers myself, but I, I don't you know, the idea, you know, I think there'll be an explosion of wealth but because we have all of these machines and potential, and we'd be able to create more circular ways of doing things, more regenerative ways of doing things, and like, you know, really well, people are better.

And people who are below the poverty line, you know, create income and and money for businesses. And you get a load of struggling people behind the poverty line, that's not good for anyone. Or people with chronic disease or all of these kinds of things, that's not good for anyone. And I think once we start lining up kind of these entrepreneurial desires with what the world really needs and what we all need, and we get into creating a much, much bigger pie for everyone.

Then, you know, we'll all do much better than we did before [00:33:00] monetarily as well as. And, you know, these tools can help us do that, but we need to all kind of learn to line with our own best interests and humanity's best interest heart, but, you know, part of that is how do we learn to get along enough to find out enough about each other to be able to collaborate to find out what really matters to us individually and collectively.

And I think we're struggling as a, as a human race. With that right now,

Sarah: yeah, that's, that's the main thing. It's like, yeah, the outer stuff is all lining up for us, but are we ready in terms of the inner job? Are we doing our inner job? And

Marc: yeah, I mean, I can't even create agreement in my own family, you know, how do you create agreement in the world?

And it's like, man, this feels like the tension, you know, it's like we have all of this limitless possibility arriving, but can we get out of our own way? to, to to manifest it. And I think this is the, I think this is the real role that marketers play which is [00:34:00] telling these really positive, hopeful stories that not just for people to consume, but to inspire people, you know, to be the best selves and, and to create the thing that they're, they're born to create and to be okay to do that perfectly.

And in a human way and to create that kind of, you know, viral deep connection that comes with people. being alive.

Sarah: Yeah, I love that. That's kind of a a good place to to come full circle. I love how you did that It's like, oh, yeah, it's all about the marketers

Marc: I did start off as a marketer So, yeah, I can spin a story I can't do much but spinning a story

Sarah: That's great.

No exactly and I think that's really You What, [00:35:00] what we're working on is like, you know, marketing has been taught as an outside job for so many years. What I'm trying to do with humane marketing and some friends and colleagues are, you know, they're calling it differently conscious marketing and Claudia and other people.

It's like, well, What if we start from the inside? What if market, a marketer is actually a healer, right? That's, that's what this is about. And it's, it's, you can call it a marketer or you can, whatever, a facilitator, whatever it is, right? If, if more people heal themselves and then help others heal, that's, that's.

Marc: Yeah. I mean, I tend to, cause I work right across community and I knew the language of consciousness and healing and stuff really resonates and connects with a certain part of the community. And be at whatever stage and kind of the adoption curve that is, although that's rapidly changing. But to me, it's just good marketing.

Like, let's not cloud [00:36:00] it with its own form of words. Bureaucracy and stuff like that. It's like, you know, the whole point of marketing is to emotionally connect with people to create a mutually beneficial outcome, right? That's just good marketing. Let's not dress it up. And like, we're just, we're just learning in this era that there are ways of marketing better and deep connection and trust is one of the core aspects of, you know, Marketing for as long as I've known it and it's just like we're we're learning our craft collectively.

We're getting better at doing that and let's See it something else or them and us. It's just It's just good marketing.

Sarah: Yeah, that's really good. I always ask now that I'm working on this book the final question is like, what does business like we're human mean to you? Like when you hear this term business, like we're human, what comes up for you?

Like, what, what does that make you [00:37:00] think of?

Marc: Yeah, for me, it's like this idea of mutual exchange. Yeah. You know, I think in the consciousness community, there's a lot of fear of receiving, I think, and You know, I kind of always had these visions of like, kind of the Italian markets and things like that, where there's this great flow of abundance and handing over the money and fruit and beautiful stuff coming the other way.

And there's all this kind of love and conversation and things like that. So that, but there's still trade because, you know, it's, it's. It's a, it's a pain in the ass to do barter, you know, it's exhausting to like find the right person who's got the bits, you know, so there's, there's something magical in as a technology [00:38:00] commerce itself that, that allows previously impossible exchanges to place. And I think there's beauty in that. You know, the market was a place of conversation and connection and wonder and beauty and care. and you know, that to me, and it can take all forms, but the essence of that, that it's something done together from a place of, but there's still this kind of exchange going on.

That's, for what that means in a modern context. You know, it's not sitting at home, pressing one click on Amazon, watching Netflix for three hours a night. Not speaking to anyone, not going anywhere that to me isn't human business, it's business. But

Sarah: Yeah. It's also, it's like buying from not a human, but this giant mega list of company, right?

Where on the market you see the person that you're buying from. So you [00:39:00] like, there's this establishment of trust as well.

Marc: But it's not to say that I haven't had amazing things from Amazon or amazing things from Netflix. And that there is an art and wonder and love that's been put into all of these things.

And, you know, we've just got to hold it lightly and say, well, okay, how do we just tweak these things a little and then be a little wiser about how we're using them and then try and build these systems in a way that bring us together rather than drive us apart. And and I think that'll be good for business, you know maybe, you know, Netflix becomes the world's greatest party planner or something, you know, like that brings people together.

I'd pay a subscription for that, you know, took all the effort by meeting and, you know, Amazon was creating pop up markets all over the world to create kind of wonder. I think these things will end up being massive. Businesses that will create more commerce than the current kind of disconnected way of doing things and it's just these are really complex, complex problems is, you know, working [00:40:00] globally, but the bringing us all back to each other.

Whereas I think, you know, globalization is has driven a lot of convenience, but it's also driven a lot of disconnection. And I think. You know, the businesses of the future will be much more fractal that allow us to be human and in villages and at Dunbar kind of scale of connection, but still provide us with that kind of convenience and wonder.

But I think that's where things like AI are really interesting because they can hold all that complexity that I kind of hunter gatherer localized minds can't hold. And when those 2 things work in unison that work in our individual and collective best interest, then I think we'll, we'll create.

Wonderful, inspiring, connecting businesses that will not be the same as the Italian markets that drove that, but will be even better. Even

Sarah: better. Even better. I don't know about that one.

Marc: What if that was possible? How magical would the world be?

I like to, you know, see the, I [00:41:00] like your

Sarah: optimism. Yeah. Well, as I

Marc: say to my dystopian friends the day we all die, at least I would have enjoyed myself on the way there. What's the downside for hope, right? You know, that's the, and so, yeah, I, I, I, I'd like to think we could live in the world where the wonders of the past and the wonders of the future meet together to create something better than we can even imagine today.

I don't think we have a choice.

Sarah: Yeah, we don't want to be stuck where we are, so Well, we

Marc: can't. We can't unify unless we honor the past and bring forward the magic of the future and do it in a way that honors us all, in a way that inspires us all and connects us all. I don't think we have a choice about that because everything else leads to, you know, a huge kind of dissatisfaction and disconnection of one society, part of society over another.

So, you know, it's [00:42:00] a time for the hopeful imagineers to, you know, that COVID phrase, you know, build back better. I don't think we And you know, this is about society turning from a caterpillar into a butterfly and and you know, we're in the messy bit it's hard for a caterpillar to see what a butterfly looks like from that perspective, right?

So like we it's hard to imagine from where we are going into the liquidation Liquidation that there could be a mutable butterfly the other side I don't want to you know, spend hours and hours of my life fearing for the future Yeah I want to be part of building the butterfly and not to say I don't spend hours and hours of my life figuring for the future, but like when I remember, that's pretty pointless.

I get back to the, you know, the everyday wonder of spending time with amazing people, building amazing things as you do, right? And that's always what turns me to hope is when I'm in a conversation with someone like you, realizing that there are people like you all over the world in all sorts of different ways doing amazing things.

And [00:43:00] that whilst it's not always easy to see on the news feeds and the social media feeds, like if you spend enough time out in the world, you, you can feel, you can feel all over every day. And whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed or stressed by the future, I just go and have coffee with someone wonderful.

And it reminds me that I'm not alone in this And There are people building technology from care. There are people Bringing the markets back. There are people like doing all sorts of but you know with thumb up machines and all of these kind of other other bits and pieces that that will you know, yeah But we'll find our way.

Sarah: We're just

Marc: a little lost right now.

Sarah: Yeah, well, I, yeah, I definitely want to talk again to you because every time I speak to you it's like, oh, you see, there's so much no, no, I'm usually a very optimistic person as well, and I still am. Surround myself by, yeah, content and, and ideas and inspiration. But yeah, talking to you, [00:44:00] it's, it just confirms all of that.

It's like, yeah, that's exactly what I'm working towards. So it's been a, it's been a delight to refresh my memory with your wisdom. So so much for coming on today. You spend a

Marc: day with me when I'm in family life, you'll see. See, I'm not that wise, you know, there's no pedestal here. I spent time thinking and feeling about certain things.

I have some gifts, but I also have many, many weaknesses. And so I don't want to cover this space. I'm good. You know, this is my gift. But please don't get the wrong idea that I don't spend lots of time in my struggle as well. How British of you to

Sarah: be so humble.

Marc: Self deprecating, I think it's

Sarah: the

Marc: culture of birching ourselves.

Sarah: And I'll just have to mention that I'll have to use the best AI possible out there to clean up the audio from all [00:45:00] the mic sounds and stuff.

Marc: Do our best.

Sarah: I hope it wasn't too terrible

Marc: to listen to. Yeah, and the builders started hammering half way through it, but I think that's the best. The magic.

Although I, although I, I invite you to put out an imperfect live offering that shows the humanism. Yeah, we'll do a mix of

Sarah: humanness. We can't, you

Marc: know, polishing everything also loses some of its. Some of it's magic. It's like romantic almost. As long as you put a good story on it, it's fine.

Sarah: Good. Well, delightful to hang out with you, Mark.

Thanks so much for being here.

Marc: Take care.

Sarah: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Find out more about Mark's work at markwin. com or [00:46:00] connect with him on LinkedIn. And if you're looking for others who think like you, who are wanting to create this new paradigm of marketing and business, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle?

You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. you find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash M 1 9 8. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. The Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:47:00] [00:48:00] soon.