#63: Navigating Stepfamily Life, with Amy Stone

Love Is Us: Exploring Relationships and How We Connect

Nearly half of all people are predicted to be part of a stepfamily at some point in their lives. Starting (or continuing) that journey with an understanding of the unique dynamics of blended families can help smooth the ride, improve your relationships, and help to make it a supportive environment for kids and adults alike. This episode will help get you started.

Amy Stone is a mentor and coach for stepparents. She is a mom, a stepmom, and a grandma. She is a certified life coach but it is her personal experience as a wife and stepmom pushed her to create her own unique path to happiness. Today she shares her lessons learned and tools with others who find themselves in a similar situation.

When she’s not coaching she’s usually running or swimming or biking - Amy is a 7-time Ironman Triathlon finisher and an avid marathon runner.

Learn more about Amy:

Website: https://amysaysso.com/

​​IG: https://www.instagram.com/amysaysso_coaching/

FB: https://www.facebook.com/theamysaysso/

Learn more about Karin:

Website: https://drcalde.com

IG: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

Episode:

Karin: Hello and welcome, everybody. Today we're gonna be talking about stepfamilies, or if you prefer the term, blended families. And this is a subject that's near and dear to my heart. As someone who grew up as a kid in a stepfamily and at a time when there wasn't a lot of good information about how to do that in a way that works best for kids and the adults as well. But also now, as an adult, I have a stepfamily. I'm not a step parent, but my husband is a stepfather to my kids. And so I see that it's really important for us to have more of an understanding of those dynamics and the challenges that come along with it, with the rewards. So when I started coaching, I was working primarily with step families, and I still work with a lot of step families, but have expanded my audience a little bit. But I'm super excited to have my guest today, Amy Stone. She is a stepmother, a long term stepmother, and now is a mentor and coach to stepfamilies, and she was just a joy to talk with. She really knows her stuff, and she's got a great sense of humor, and I felt like we could talk about a million different things. So I hope you get something out of this episode. Perhaps I will invite her back. She also has a podcast of her own called Amy says so. So I hope you like it. And thanks for being here. Here we go.

Karin: Welcome, Amy.

[02:24] Amy: Hi. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[02:27] Karin: Yeah, I'm excited to have you. This is an important topic, and I have been on the lookout for the right guest to have to talk about this, because it's something near and dear to my heart, and I wanted someone who really knows her stuff, and I think that's you.

[02:47] Amy: Thank you. Thank you. I accept that compliment.

[02:51] Karin: Oh, wonderful. And we'll get into your podcast and everything toward the end. But I just want to start out with asking, where are you in the world?

[03:02] Amy: I am in sunny Miami, Florida.

[03:05] Karin: And you said it's getting warm there.

[03:07] Amy: It is. I mean, this is the time of year. Starting in February is the time of year where people are really drawn to the tropics because it's warm here and that's. So that's spring break. Right. So we're finishing out spring break. I don't know if people saw it, but Miami actually did an anti spring break campaign this year, which it was fine. There were still plenty of people. But now, now that we're recording this, right at this start of April, it is, it's getting tropical hot here. But that, that's what drew me here. I came here for warm weather and I try really hard not to complain about the warm weather.

[03:48] Karin: Yeah, I can relate to that. In Oregon, we complain all the time.

[03:53] Amy: About the weather, whether it's cold or hot or it's, you know, I think.

[03:57] Karin: We have this ten degree window where, where people are happy, right?

[04:01] Amy: No, absolutely. And, you know, we sort of on reverse seasons, like, I'm not in the southern hemisphere, but it's, you know, it's delightful here in the winter and then in the summer it gets oppressive. And so, you know, that's the reason the snowbirds are such geniuses. Right. Like, if you have a place to be when it's hot here, that it's not hot. That's like the ideal situation.

[04:27] Karin: Yeah. So tell us what you do for work.

[04:30] Amy: Okay. So what I do, I'd love to share this with you, is I am a mentor and a life coach for step parents.

[04:36] Karin: And how did you come to do that work?

[04:38] Amy: So I came to do that work. The way many people come to mentorship and coaching is that I am a stepparent. My step kids are now adults, but when I met them for the first time, they were quite young. So I've been a stepparent for over 25 years and I was doing coaching, fitness coaching and endurance coaching, and I added life coaching. And then once upon a time somebody said, what is a place where you could really make a big impact? And I was like, oh, you know, there is this thing I've done that was tough. That was tough. And I might be able to really support people there.

[05:19] Karin: Wonderful. Yes. We do need more people who know how to navigate step family life because it is a higher degree of difficulty. It's different than a non blanded family. There are different things to consider. So I appreciate people like you.

[05:39] Amy: Thank you. Yeah.

[05:41] Karin: And why is it helpful for people, even those who are not in a blended or a stepfamily, to know a little bit about stepfamilies?

[05:52] Amy: So this is a great question, and if your audience doesn't know, you actually, let me have this question with a little bit in advance. So I got a chance to think about it, and the first thing, actually, was a little bit of sort of imposter syndrome, where I was like, oh, is it. Is it important that other people would know? But then I was like, okay, no. Here, let me answer this question. The dynamics of existing in a blended family are helpful for people to know because there are so many people who are living in this situation. So I live in the United States. You live in the United States. The data is wonky. And so, like, I just will be upfront about that. Like that you've always got to question information about this, and I encourage people to just question the life out of any statistics I give. But the estimate that I have recently from Pew research is that four out of ten marriages today include a remarriage. Right? So those are people who are potentially stepparents. Maybe not. Like, it's not. It's not a one for one answer, but there are a lot of people who are engaging in potentially this construct, even if. And the other thing I always point out to people is, even if you don't choose this as your path, your kids might choose this as your path. And interestingly, if you have kids and they get remarried and you are an in law, congratulations, you're in a blended family. It's a very, very similar dynamic between an in law and the new family members that it is for a stepparent. So it's a very helpful set of complexity. And what's super interesting is that that mother in law role is vilified just like the stepmom.

[07:33] Karin: Yeah. Yeah.

[07:34] Amy: Isn't that crazy? Isn't that crazy? Like we. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[07:38] Karin: And, you know, I also think about, you know, couples who remarry much later in life or who lose a partner and then remarry, and then they have adult kids. And that adjustment is still really hard for a lot of families.

[07:55] Amy: Still really, really challenging. And it is a different dynamic, without a doubt. Right. You get a totally different set of circumstances when you're talking about, like, 50 year old children versus seven year old children. Completely different set of circumstances. But, yeah, absolutely releasing the idea that the only kind of family setup is the one where it's a first marriage and everybody is biologically related to the children. Is really helpful in a lot of ways, because even outside of the very common ways that you and I just discussed, there are thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people who are in the daily work of raising children that they're not necessarily related to. Sometimes these are kinship, custodial things where a relative has stepped in. Other times, it's somebody who's not related at all. And so embracing the idea that a family doesn't always have to look like that is helpful for so many people.

[08:53] Karin: Yeah. And there are plenty of people who work with families, such as doctors or teachers, and might not understand that dynamic. And so there are some things that they're going to know, get wrong or miss.

[09:09] Amy: Yes, absolutely. This was an old one. It was the census before the last census. But they. So we don't ask on the census, are you a stepparent? But one of the questions, I don't know if they did in this last one, but the one before it, they asked, are you living with somebody you're not related to? An enormous amount of children said, yes. And so if you branch out away from, you know, the mom, dad, stepmom, stepdad thing, it really encompasses a lot of people, and it's. And then a lot of this kind of conversation is always focused on very young children. But I really work in supporting the adults. And the concept of handing adults a toolbox to help them do this in a, you know, have more things to reach for in some of these very hard situations, to me, is a really empowering place to be because whether you're a first time parent, and this is actually something, every once in a while, people will say, hey, is the advice you give, you know, the tools you offer, is it only for step parents? And I don't know. I don't think that's true. I think that a lot of the stuff I offer is very broad, and I just speak directly to step parents, partly because nobody else is. Like, very few people speak directly to step parents, and. But, you know, it's like, the more tools, the better. The more resources, the better. It was way back in the early nineties, I think, that, uh, Hillary wrote that book that was like, it takes a village. And, you know, that's such a beautiful idea that it takes a village. And one of the just earth shattering revelations that most adults who engage in the family ing and adulting and parenting and step parenting space is that, you know, people turn into a joke. They're like, does the village just show up? Like, when do I find the village where where is it? Like, is there a number I can call? And so the more people who are out there are saying, hey, here are some things you can do, and here's some support. I think. I think the better.

[11:04] Karin: Yeah, I agree. So for those who might be just starting their stepfamily journey, what might be helpful for them to think about ahead of time so they can be a little bit more prepared if there is such a thing.

[11:22] Amy: This is such a good question. One of the things I love about this question is that, truthfully, I thought I was prepared. I mean, I just really. I had this assumption that, uh, that I could. That I was going to be fine. In fact, there were people who, um, who did try to raise the. My awareness that this could be a tough, uh, tough job. Like, I. My mom very specifically said, hey, this. This sounds like it could be a lot. You know, are you sure you want to take this on? And I was like, I. In my youthful exuberance, I took it as a challenge. Her. This is like a highlight of the flaw in our relationship, our mother daughter relationship. I was like, how dare you question my abilities to do this. I think that there's a lot of things you can do. None of them can necessarily guarantee that anything's going to work. But some of the things that are really, really helpful, that are counterintuitive is that I think that the more you know yourself, the better you are going to be at starting a family relationship. And I do think that's probably true for a first marriage in addition. Right? Because I'm upfront with people that a lot of the work that I did that helped me be happy in my family was deeply internal work about what was driving me and what was pushing me and what was allowing my buttons to be pushed. Because it's funny how having those little people around, whether they're your own children or your stepchildren, they push buttons. They. I don't know. Like, it is a special, special kind of thing that kids can do. And so that's something that I think is very helpful. And I offer that with the caveat that I think it's very hard to know that you need to do that or when you're done. Like, I don't know. It's like, I went to therapy, like.

[13:18] Karin: Ten years ago, and I did that. So it's.

[13:20] Amy: I did it. I did it, and it's done. And that definitely mirrors some of my experience. Like, oh, what is this showing up for? But, you know, having kids around brings up your own stuff from your childhood. If it's there, good, bad, middle, you know, everything from your bad experience at the science fair to being bullied on the playground to whatever came up for you. Seeing kids go through their own experience brings all of that stuff back up. And so if there's anything that was undone or incomplete, there's a chance it'll come back up. And I think that that's good. I think the other thing that is helpful, but also really kind of ambiguous and hard to know, is having a concept of what kind of life you want to create is a really helpful thing, because otherwise, there's a sense that life is sort of running you instead of you being intentional about it. But those are ooey gooey, messy, kind of ambiguous kind of things.

[14:26] Karin: But, yeah, creating a vision. This is where.

[14:28] Amy: Creating a vision.

[14:28] Karin: Yeah, we're gonna go, and this is what's important to us. Yeah, yeah. And I love that you said that. It's really important to know yourself. When I was first starting coaching and working with step families, I did a bunch of research and interviewed people who had, you know, all the roles, all the different kinds of roles in a step family. And the thing that was really clear is that those who either did the work themselves and were parents and step parents, they did well, or those who were kids and had a parent who had done their work by far, they did the best.

[15:10] Amy: No, it's like, if you like, it translates really well to other parts of your life. Right. So if you walk into a restaurant and, you know, you are the consumer, you don't feel like you need to jump behind the counter and cook all the food, you know, why you're there and what you're doing, and we don't do that in some places in our adult life. It gets confused. And then when you have these blends where there is. There are legacy roles. Right. There are legacy roles. So my step kids, they have a mom. So when I came in and showed up as another woman, clearly defining for me and them and anybody who happened to walk around, like, how we saw that in my family, was really helpful in making it through the day.

[15:58] Karin: Yeah.

[15:58] Amy: And I didn't know that I fell into it, so I had been done.

[16:03] Karin: Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I agree. Understanding your triggers and what you do and why that's triggering for you, and then perhaps doing some healing of that old wound, all of that can go a long way.

[16:16] Amy: Right. And it can get really complicated, so. Right. Like, the word mom is a really powerful word, has a lot of attachment to people. Right. So, you know, when you take the word stepmom, a lot of people have really strong feelings about that. People actually will change it. They will say, I'm the bonus mom or the bonus parent. There's other. There's other words, and. And that's. That's easy to talk about here on the podcast. But there's other things that happen, right, which make it really throw the power of those words and the power of the triggers in the limelight. Like, so, like, if you've got fertility issues happening in family and you're really tied to what you're going to do, then these things become very messy, and you're craving for certain things starts to show up and giving yourself permission and tools to be able to talk about it and create a safe space to be this person inside your family. The more you know about yourself, the easier that is. I mean, it's a very, very loaded thing for people who deeply, deeply crave something to actually feel like they can talk about it. So, I am not a fertility coach, but I resonate with people who are. It's hard to stand up and say, I'm struggling with this. My concept of who I am is tied to this thing, and when I see these things, and a similar thing can happen to step parents. I'm struggling with who I am in this situation. I have these emotions. I'm not sure it's okay for me to share with you that. I feel, like, a little freaked out right now. You know, it's hard.

[17:51] Karin: Yeah. Yeah. And what are some of the struggles that stepdads face?

[17:59] Amy: So, stepdad. Never have lived as a stepdad myself, but I'll share some that I hear. Stepdads, it's a. I mean, they have a. It depends on their, you know, view of the world, but a lot of stepdads struggle with what they're allowed to do. Right. So if you walk into a family and your concept is that if you're a man, you're supposed to be the disciplinarian and the head of the household. Right. And there's other people doing some of those things where you're not sure if you can do that, that can really be a tough spot for some men to sit in. You know, like, hey, if I feel these kids are not behaving the way I want to, am I allowed to. To voice my opinion? Am I allowed to be a disciplinarian? What are the rules? What am I not allowed to do? It can be unclear how to demonstrate affection. So it's okay for a woman socially, sociologically, in a group setting. We're pretty accepting of women being physically affectionate to children. It's not as clear for some men. Like, so if I'm living with you, what are the rules? There's that, like, amazing scene in there's an Adam Sandler movie. I'm forgetting the title. And he's like, taking care of a young kid, and he is not bathing. And then he find the kid begins to smell, and he ends up in the bathtub. And the kid looks up and he's like, why am I wearing a swimsuit? And Sandler's like, I'm really unclear on the rules here. And, you know, that's like a, you know, that's one of the things that men really struggle with. But how to hold on to your view as the man and in the family? And what does that mean when you may not be the father of those children?

[19:46] Karin: Yeah. And so do you coach people to simply have a conversation and figure out what works for them, or do you have specific guidelines that you recommend?

[19:57] Amy: So. I don't have guidelines that I recommend for other people. I'm very an open book about how it worked out in our family. But I do. I suggest that people, and this depends on how old the kids are. Right. Because it's a different conversation. If you're stepping into a family and the kids are teenagers, teenagers are able to share their opinions. But being open about, you know, what are we gonna call me? Am I gonna be the stepmom? Are you gonna call my, what's my name? What is, you know, what is your ex gonna call me? What is my role? What are the job responsibilities? What are the things you're hoping I'll do? What are the things that I'm hoping I'll do? What's important to you in the family and opening that up when it's appropriate so that the kids have a chance to voice what they think and the questions they have. Because sometimes as adults, we just assume that we're just going to show up and the kids are going to understand. But kids have a lot of questions about what's happening in their houses, and, you know, they are very able to figure things out. But it's so helpful sometimes to sit down and say, this is what we're doing, and these are the rules. And what do you think about it? It doesn't work as well as you might think to say, this is it, and that's the way it's going to be, and you're all going to love her. She's your new stepmom right? It's not.

[21:20] Karin: It works great.

[21:21] Amy: Yeah. And what works even better is when you walk in, you're like, hey, these new people you just met last week, they're going to live here and they're your siblings. Congratulations. You know, you should love them. Go. You know, these are actually things we can't force, but you can open the conversation and do that. If you ask a twelve year old, what do you want to call me? They might have an answer. They might say, this feels weird. My step kids called me by my name. They always did. And I never really thought about it. And I tell the story that we were at an amusement park, a video place, and they needed an adult who could give permission for them to go on the ride. And the teenager behind the counter was like, who says, you can do this? And they were like, she does. Because I was the person around. And they were like, is she your stepmom? And they were like, yes. And I was like, all right, let's go with that. Here we go. Yes, fine, you can go on the ride. And that's the first time we had that conversation. It's not the way. That's not an intentional conversation, but. Yeah, right, right.

[22:33] Karin: And what are some of the issues that you hear about from step parents and parents?

[22:39] Amy: So the number one issue that brings people to me is people come in and say, we have different parenting styles that can be the step parent and the biological parent that they're partnered with. It can be the ex, it can be the in laws, it can be anything. Right? That's a catch all phrase for saying we don't agree about what we're doing. And another thing that brings people to me is disagreements about discipline and behavior. Right. So they'll say, often people will say discipline. I would broaden it to say behavior in the family, children's behavior. Manners come up a lot. Food comes up a lot. Sleep comes up a lot. Respect comes up a lot.

[23:23] Karin: How do you help people with that issue, specifically?

[23:26] Amy: Respect. Which one? Respect. Oh, respect. So similar. It's how do I help you? When we talk about respect, we sort of have to figure out what it is they're looking for. And then. And then what's going on? I openly share with people that one, I did not have kids when I became a step parent, so they were four and eight when I met them. I openly shared that I thought that these kids should be quieter, should eat more varied foods, should sleep a little longer in the mornings, and, you know, and have better table manners. And I also, with people that I was wrong about all of those things. I didn't understand. I didn't have any baseline for what was age appropriate behavior. So, like, when somebody comes and says, oh, they're not being respectful, the first thing we do is actually figure out what's going on and what's showing up and then figuring out whether or not there's like a. Is there a real behavioral issue that's going on that needs help? Are the things that are expected for everybody clearly to find. Right. Like what? Is there something that's setting something off and what can we do? Have you, if somebody doesn't know what's expected of them, they are less likely to be able to do it. So if you and, you know, small children are not, they don't know how to do anything. So there's a period of education, and then you'd think that when they got older, right, that the kids would be better able to do it. And to one extent, they are. But then there's this great period of the parenting journey, which is called adolescence. And adolescence is tough because does a teenager know how to pick up their wet towel off the floor? I have been told that they do, but four kids have gone through my house, and I will confess to a 0% success rate in getting them to do this without being told or bring all the spoons down or cups down from the roof. You know, like, there's, you know, it is. There are frustrating parts of living with.

[25:31] Karin: Children and how do you help them navigate these behavior challenges?

[25:36] Amy: So some of it is offering, you know, tools for actual behavior challenge. And other things are actually being very intentional about the relationship that you want to have with the people in your family. Right. So. And I think that this is something I very much did not understand when I began cohabitating with children. But there is a point where we each have a choice where it's like, how long do I want to fight about this? You know, what? How do I want to show up when the movie of my life is played out, played back? Do I want to see a video of me yelling at these kids 3 hours a day? Like, what do I want to do? What do I want to create? And that's the shift that when you start to look at it away from focusing on the behavior as it's showing up and being able to create a family environment that supports everybody. So. And that's going to be very different depending on what it shows up in sort of the behavior. So if it's like, not sleeping, that's a different thing. You know, not eating well, talking back, screaming, being loud, all of those things will have different tools that can be used. But identifying what you don't like is just a small piece of creating what hopefully you do like. You know, are you engaging in combat with your kids? Then you want to stop? That is the. Is there nothing for them to do? There was a season in my life as a stepparent where I became very aware that the kids, my step kids at this point, before I had kids, they had aged out of all of the toys that were in our house. And so they were like, they were looking for something to do in our house because the things that were there, they didn't want to play with anymore, you know? And so if you had asked me in that moment, I would have said they were misbehaving. When I look back, I can say, oh, wow. We really. We had gotten out of sync with who they were at that point. They needed stuff to do.

[27:34] Karin: So what's an example of some of these tools that can help to ease some of that tension around? I want a clean kitchen, and maybe the other one doesn't matter so much, you know, between the two parents. And now the kids are, all of a sudden, there are all these expectations, and so there's conflict. Right. So how do you help parents with that?

[28:00] Amy: So we define. We look at what conflict means to you and how it's showing up, right. And what you think is reasonable because everybody comes to a relationship with a slightly different communication style, an expectation of how other people will communicate around you. What is. Okay, are you allowed to fight? Are you not allowed to fight? Can you yell? Does yelling mean you're angry all the time? Right. This can look a million different ways in a bunch of different families. I grew up with a very quiet family, and so I misinterpreted many, many things from my husband's very loud family. I was like, oh, my gosh, what is going on? And so redefining that was a big piece. So conflict is really complicated. So there's no scene. The first thing I do is try and remove from the table the idea that there's probably a situation that you desire where you agree all the time, right, that doesn't kind of exist. And it. Or if it did, you might not want it, right? Like, it's like if you agreed on every single thing all day long, that would be, for most people, a very, very non interesting experience. And so what we're actually doing is creating, trying to figure out what it is that you want, where you're not being heard and where you're feeling like you can't function in the house. And how will we get through that, right? So if you have, I think you mentioned the kitchen, like, cleaning the kitchen. So it's a really, really big point in a house like that, you know? Well, first of all, let's address the fact that it's the greatest fake out of all adulthood, that there's ever a period where the kitchen stays clean for more than, like, 20 minutes. Like, it's like the craziest thing. There's always dishes, there's always laundry, and it's super overwhelming. It's, like, super overwhelming. It's like the greatest fake out of adulthood. I mean, I see. I think I remember as a kid that there would be times where things would be finished, but as an adult, I never get to that point. So, anyway, acknowledging that. That you feel like that's one of the things figuring out, often there's a sensation of an unfair displacement of work, right? Like, I'm. No one but me ever loads the dishwasher, that kind of thing. Right? The kids never clean up after themselves, those kind of things. Giving. Getting a feeling for what is actually pushing your buttons and what's driving it out. And then figure using the. Figuring out what works depends. Depends on what's going on, what tools I offer. True story. Once upon a time, I was working with a couple. I have permission to show this story because I love it and it's hilarious. And they have, between them, they have eight children, so there's ten people all in one house. And they came to me and they were like. They were fighting. There was huge fights about the laundry, and they had a calendar, and they had worked with a therapist, and they had family meetings and all of these things. They're going through this and they're making the presentation. I'm doing math. I'm like, what in the world? And they paused for a second. I was like, I don't think there are enough hours in the day, you guys. Like, you know you're going to be doing laundry at 03:00 in the morning? And they were like, what do you mean? I was like, I don't think this is a chart. I was like, I think you need to send some of this out or buy another laundry machine. Like, buy another washer or dryer. I have no idea. Like, is there a place you could put this? And all of a sudden, like, as I was doing it, it was like, they were like, we could get another washer or dryer. They did have a place. They had enough space. Not everybody's going to have that. So in that instance, though, my advice was like, go to Home Depot and buy more machines. Right. And they laughed about it with me for months. They would send me pictures of, like, the installation going in. Right. There's not always a deep, emotional solution to some things. Like, they did not have enough resources. Like, of course, they were fighting about who was going to do laundry at 11:00 because there was too much laundry for the machines. Sometimes I offer very pragmatic tips. Other times I take people through tips on how to have a conversation without it being a fight. Like, one of the most powerful things I offer to teach people is how to talk about stuff without it being a fight to move it forward.

[32:26] Karin: And what are some of the common missteps that you see step families make?

[32:31] Amy: So one of the missteps that I see a lot, I mean, there's a couple of really common ones. One of the ones that I see people make, and one of the ones that I can confess to making myself is that I jumped in to do things before knowing what would be helpful or how I fit into the family. And. And that eventually became problematic for me. And I had to sort of walk back that cat in some ways. So, you know, that's one, like, it's like you jump in, you offer to do things. Sometimes it's well received, sometimes it's not. Sometimes you realize that you've signed yourself up for something that you didn't actually want to do. And I didn't understand the dynamics or what it would mean for me long term. Right. So that's something that I see people do before it shows up a lot, that people in a stepparent role will do that and then find themselves in a position where they feel like they're not appreciated for the work that they're doing. And, I mean, I did experience that. Like, so that's. That's an easy place for people to. To do. I think that. I think that when you bring kids to the family, so if you have two groups of parents who have kids, bringing them to family, both of those people understand how much work it is to raise kids. When you have somebody like me who did not have kids yet, who joined a family, I really did not understand the reality of the 24, 7365 days a year, how much work it was. And so that's one of the things that I think is easy to underestimate, and I think that it's easy to underestimate how hard it is to bring people together to cohabitate. I think that that's an easy one to underestimate the different relationships. Incorporating all the relationships can be really hard. And the one that gets all the attention that everybody always thinks about is it can be very complicated to have relationships with somebody who still have attachments to a previous relationship. So the relationship with the ex spouse can be a level of complication, and that's the one that everybody always talks about.

[34:40] Karin: We could have a whole episode on.

[34:42] Amy: I think there are books and movies.

[34:45] Karin: Yes, yes, absolutely. And I love that you mentioned how, you know, you didn't really understand going into it, how hard parenting is and how much work it takes. And I think once people realize that, they give one another a lot more latitude to not be perfect.

[35:06] Amy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I wish there was a way. I truly don't know if you can fully understand that until you've walked a little bit. I mean, that's the reason. That's the saying. It's like walk a mile in somebody's shoes. But it is. It's a marathon. You know, it's. It's 24 hours a day, 360. I mean, that once you've been through having a house full of people with the stomach flu, you have a whole different understanding of the experience. Like, it's like, you know that 03:00 a.m. Moment where you're like, where is my fairy godmother? Exactly. Because if she ever wants to show up, this is a good time, right?

[35:47] Karin: Yeah. What are some of the challenges that the primary parent faces.

[35:56] Amy: So then, within a blended family? That's this question. So that's really interesting. So it is, depending on how it is, their own discrepancy between what they thought their life would be if there was that. So if there was. There's not always divorce in a blended family, but if there is divorce, there can be legacy feelings from that that, you know, I never thought I would be here. It's. It's the mirror of. Of the step parent. Like, this is not what I expected. I thought that I was married forever, and now I'm not. And is it my fault and what do I need to do? There's a tremendous. I call it divorce shaming, like, which is the action of, like, you know, just. We have just pounded people with the message that divorce is wrong and you shouldn't do it and all of these things over the years, and you're damaging your children and all of these things. That's a heavy weight. That's a really heavy weight to be out from underneath. And so that is a big pressure for people who are primary parents who are then remarrying, because it's like we talked about, you know, knowing yourself and knowing your triggers. You know, that's a big one. It's a big one. If you're starting every conversation with your kids from a position of, I've already screwed this up. You're going to do different things than if you're starting from a position of, you know what? Some stuff changed, and we're moving forward.

[37:20] Karin: Yeah.

[37:21] Amy: Yeah.

[37:21] Karin: And one of the things that I've seen and experienced myself is, you know, I'm in a. I'm in a blended film family where I'm the primary parent and my husband is the stepdad. And I can feel that pull of her. He wants something to be done a certain way, but the kids have maybe always done it that way, and. Or they don't understand why he would want. And you don't want to cast him as the bad guy.

[37:54] Amy: No. 100%. Yeah, there's that, too. Yeah. I call it the invisible traditions. Right. It's like there is a legacy culture between the primary parent and those kids. They don't know. Right. Or sometimes you will, and sometimes you won't. Right. But, like, sometimes you don't even know that you've got the legacy culture going on in the house, and then the step parent comes in, and they don't have any idea, so they have another view of how they want to do it. And this can be. This can show up in big ways. It can also show up in really, really small, innocent ways. In my family, it showed up in seats on the couch. Right. So I was sitting in a place on the couch that my stepdaughter thought was her seat. How in the world was I. There's no way for me to have known that, right. And she was a kid, so it was not anything that she could verbalize for me. Right. So we had all of these, like, weird little awkward moments that I was like, I don't understand. She didn't understand. And my husband was like, I just want you to love each other, and all, like, all of these things, right? And it went away by accident when we bought a different couch, and all of a sudden, everything was reset. It was like, this is a new couch. And, like, you know, and she was. And that's what. And I. The only reason I noticed is that the kids walked in, and they're like, we get to pick new seats. And I was like, you had seats? I didn't have a seat. What are you talking about? There were seats. Who said there were seats? Like, but of course. Right. We have our unspoken seats on the couch. You have your unspoken seat in the car. You know, all of those things that you carry forward. And so, yeah, that can be a tricky road to follow. The tool that works really well. There is curiosity, but that's, like, a super vague, coachy thing for me to say. Right. That's a really super vague, coachy thing for me to say, but it's like, all right, so can you tell me a little bit about what's going on here, you know, or why is this important to you? And so, like, if you have a way that you've done things in the past and your new husband has a way that he wants to present, allowing a space for everybody to put their ideas on the table and forge forward is the tool in a blended family. So it's honoring what came before. Like, oh, wow. You always sat in this seat before. That's great. Right? That's super good. Where should I sit? What can my seat be like? What if, you know, can we make a new one? Like, that's one of the ways that. That works.

[40:24] Karin: That transparent communication goes a long way, doesn't it?

[40:28] Amy: But, yeah. You don't know that. You're not being transparent, though. That's why it's tricky. Right?

[40:31] Karin: Like, you don't have any idea unless someone speaks up.

[40:35] Amy: Yeah. And when someone speaks up, unfortunately, and this is. We talked about conflict. Right. So when someone speaks up, often that's because their feelings are hurt or something has gone wrong, and then it's highly emotional. Right. And so highly emotional communication, we often put under the. The thing of conflict. But figuring out how to walk your way through that and not be really hard on yourself when it happens. Yeah.

[41:01] Karin: Yeah. What are your thoughts about step parents? You said you don't really like the term disciplining, or you think there's a broader term in terms of behavior management or.

[41:13] Amy: Behavior management. Yeah.

[41:14] Karin: Yeah. What are your thoughts about that?

[41:17] Amy: So I think that. Okay, so I think I'll start with the. For the step parents who are listening. Right. I think that when you're living with people and you're an adult, you need a voice at the table for what the behavior in the house, like, what the expectations for what's happening around you is. Right. So, like, if you live with somebody, you have a right to say, I don't want to be punched in the face. Right. That's, like. Right when I say it like that, that sounds really, really obvious, right? So I do find that a lot of people mix the words up. They say discipline when they actually mean punishment. And so, you know, like, they say, oh, I think that the. This kid needs to be grounded or needs a timeout or the phone needs to be removed or they need to be told they can't do this. Well, those are punishments, right? Those are punishments. Those are consequences and punishments which may have a place. It's not my. I don't have any, any. Any issue on how other people are enforcing the rules in their house. But when we're talking about house rules in a blended family and behavior in a blended family, agreeing on what the standards are is where we want to start, like, what is going on and what do we want to go on, and then agreement on how it will be enforced. And discipline. Discipline is actually, like, when it works, is creating that structure of education and informing, like, spreading the word. Right. Of what they're going to do. And discipline is setting up something so that the kids succeed. Right. So people come to me and they'll say, well, he broke the rules, and this is supposed to be the rule. And so the other person said that they would enforce it, and they're not. And so I'm being disrespected, and I don't agree with their parenting style. And, you know, you sort of have to walk that back and say, okay, so who made the rule? Right? Like, did you guys really actually agree on this? Is the household? What's the purpose of this rule? Like, what went wrong? Like, why is it important? Do you guys actually agree on what the consequence will be? Because a lot of times, there's incomplete communication in a family, and somebody's like, one person is yesing the other, you know, so you've got, like, the one person thinks there's agreement and there's not. Right. The person just like, oh, yeah, sure, we'll do that. Well, do that. Or if you've got, like, a parent who is worn down, you know, they've. They've got more experience. If you. If you like it. Listen, if you've never tried to remove the phone from a child, you may not understand how hard that is. Right. You have to be ready for the battle. It's not that you shouldn't do it. It's just that, you know, you got to be ready for that. You know, telling a kid it's time to turn off the tv, you got to be ready for that. And so if a stepparent walks in and is like, do you want me to do it, the other person might say yes. And all that means is, oh, yes. Anybody? Anybody else do it? Sure. And so coming to agreement on all of those things and making sure that it actually has the impact that you want it to have. So we talked about the difference between discipline and punishment, right? Removing a phone is a punishment. Right. What's the reason for removing the phone? Okay, so maybe the goal is that the kid actually needs to do their homework and do better in school, right. So there is a chance there, right. That if you focus too hard on removing that device, that you don't actually positive impact the homework because you spend 3 hours a night fighting over the phone. Right. And so having that conversation about what are we trying to accomplish? What do we want the kid to learn? What is the, what is the environment for the house? And are we actually aligned and how we're going to do this. So the standard, the old fashioned vernacular, like what the rule is if you open most magazines, is to let the parents parent, right. And it's this default setting that a step parent should allow the discipline and the parenting to come from them. And on face value, if everybody agrees, that's fine, right. But there is a hidden possibility there where the step parent feels extremely disempowered and without a voice in the house, it may not matter. Right. There are times like there's 10,000 million things that have gone on with my step kids where I didn't have a voice and it was fine. I didn't have a place, it wasn't my purse, I wasn't upset about it at all. But there's also times where I had to live through the aftermath of whatever was going on, right. So, like bedtime, right. If the kids don't go to bed and I'm expected to stay up, that impacts me. To tell a stepparent that they can't be involved in that decision has consequences for the stepparent. And so that's something to be aware of. It doesn't mean that the stepparent should decide or be the enforcer, not by a long shot, but it's something to consider.

[46:09] Karin: So again, it's important for the parents to have a conversation about that and decide what makes sense.

[46:16] Amy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah. 100%. 100%. And again, it's not going to come up because everything is going well and everybody's happy.

[46:24] Karin: Yeah. Right, right. And like, I tell some of my step parents who, you know, they've decided that they don't want to be involved in, you know, when. When something happens and there's a possible punishment, they say, okay, well, then own your feelings about it.

[46:40] Amy: That's right. No, it's. And listen, it's so hard to do that. And then the thing is, is if you don't want to be involved, and the only way for you to not be involved is that you go sit in, like, your closet by yourself or you take a shower or you leave the house, and that makes you feel yucky. Own your feelings about that, because, like, that comes back to, like, creating the life that you actually want. It's like, listen, I don't need to be involved in this punishment. I also don't necessarily want to feel like I can't walk through my house while this punishment is happening. You know? And, I mean, I can remember somebody in my family was like, don't give up punishments that you don't want to enforce. And I was like, yeah, great. And then I remember the first time that clicked in, I was like, oh, well, now I have to stay home, too. Like, I did not. Okay, this sucks.

[47:32] Karin: Yeah. Yeah. It can be tricky to navigate.

[47:35] Amy: Yeah. Yeah.

[47:38] Karin: So I want to veer off a little bit and talk about something that I think is really common for kids. It was something that I experienced as a step kid, and that was really hard. And that is loyalty binds.

[47:52] Amy: Yeah.

[47:52] Karin: Can you talk to us a little bit about what those are?

[47:55] Amy: So my understanding of loyalty bonds is when a kid feels loyal to one parent or both parents or a grandparent or somebody or a sibling. Right. And loyalty bonds can create strange dynamics in families. Right. So it's actually from a distance. Right. A loyalty bond is a conditional form of love. Like, my love for you is conditional on me demonstrating my loyalty to you. And so if I'm loyal to my mom, I can't also like you, or I can't call, have a. You can't give me a nickname because you're not my mom, and only my mom is allowed to do that, or only my dad is allowed to do that. And so nobody, I don't think anybody, wakes up and says, you know what? I don't want you to love your parents. Right. We do all want that. But a loyalty bond can get mutated and misunderstood for kids, especially if it's not defined. And so that's where it is. So it's a misinterpretation of an attachment bond between usually a kid and a parent or a kid and a stepparent. Right?

[49:19] Karin: Yeah. And it's oftentimes a perception, but sometimes, yeah, it's the perception based in some reality.

[49:27] Amy: Absolutely.

[49:29] Karin: Your biological mom does not like your stepmom and don't like it when you say good things about them.

[49:39] Amy: 100%. I wish I could tell you that bad things did not happen like this, but I would be a liar. I would. Liar, liar, pants on fire. But most of us, nobody told me, like, all of these things. Like, this is this weird thing. You figure it out as you go. And so everybody has things that they do with their kids and their family that if they knew better, they wouldn't do them. Right. And when. When you have a relationship, like a marriage that splits, there are very frequently a lot of wounds. It hurts. It hurts. And so sometimes people don't do. Sometimes probably all the time, people don't do a perfect job in reestablishing new relationships. Right. There's. It's hard. It's really, really hard. And the kids are in an environment where they want to love their parents and they want to be loved by their parents. And so it shows up in. In funny ways. My. Okay, so my stepdaughter, we were getting a haircut. I'm very fortunate that there's a pretty decent relationship between my husband and his ex, but they're, like, the oldest kid, which is where some of this shows up, because the younger ones can follow the leads of the older kids. Right. So you often find that this is. This is more prominent in the older kids. We were getting a haircut and. And the teeny bopper assistant in this salon. I don't even remember why we were doing it, because this normally would be. I don't even know. Anyway, this teeny bopper assistant in the salon said, oh, well, she looks like you. You could pass as her mom based entirely on the fact that we have the same hair color. That's the. That's the only. That's the only thing that's going on here, right? And that we're both whatever women. I don't know. Like, whatever. And my stepdaughter was so freaked out by this, and she was like, shiz. And she was really, really scared by this. And. And I just. I very fortunately, I was like. I looked right at her. I was like, listen, she's got a mom. I'm not this kid's mom. I'm, you know, with her dad. And she calmed down. She heard me. Right? She heard me. But I think it's scary for kids if we remember that the kids, they're not fully formed adults. Right? It would be, if you love your mom, you don't want somebody stepping in to take them away. And in a great situation, the adults involved would be self aware and healed enough to not do that right, to not put their kids in that spot. But there's lots and lots of times where that's not going on, and so it can be hard to spot. But similarly to defining the roles of who's who in a family, adults who are aware and who are loving, they can lovingly remind the kids that it's okay to love all of the people in this family. Like, so if you've got a parent who is speaking poorly about another adult in the family, you can say. You can say, you know, it's okay for you to love your mom and share with me what she says. It's okay for your mom not to say nice things about me, but it does hurt my feelings. And, you know, you're never gonna get in trouble for telling me what your mom says, you know, like, this is a safe space for you. It's okay for you to be a kid. It's also okay to tell kids, hey, you know, I appreciate you telling me this. Like, it's okay. This is a grown up thing. Like, you don't have to handle this. I'm gonna take care of it.

[53:18] Karin: Yeah. And I think it can be really confusing for kids to experience this, and they can feel. They feel really badly because of something that, you know, maybe they're getting pressured from their stepmom to call them or something.

[53:37] Amy: Right. Okay.

[53:37] Karin: So it's really stressful for them, in that case, or. Yeah, maybe there's some parental alienation going on or whatever it is. And so that's a really hard place to put a kid in.

[53:51] Amy: It's a really hard place. One of the places definitely shows up is so kids like to talk about what they're experiencing. Right. So if a stepmom makes delicious cookies, they go back to the other house and tell their mom, oh, we had yummy cookies. Right. Sometimes, people, it makes the adults feel really, really called out, and, like. Like it's a competition, and it hopefully is not a competition. Right.

[54:20] Karin: Yeah.

[54:21] Amy: So. But being aware and being able to create a safe space for that is really interesting. Once, like, my. My step kids once brought their mom. They wanted to show their mom their room at our house. We got do. We had, like, gotten some things, and they wanted to show. And I remember at the time feeling like, oh, my God, what is going on? But at the end of the day, it was that they just wanted her to see. Right. They just wanted to see. It's just them being kids the same way they will bring you into their classrooms and doing all of those things. And if you can take a step back and remind yourself that it's not a competition, you know, it's really not. Even when people are doing this is a hard thing to swallow. But in my opinion, in my perspective of the world, even when people are doing a really crappy job, they're probably doing the best they can.

[55:05] Karin: Yes.

[55:06] Amy: And so, you know, and sadly, it's not helpful for anybody. Never has anybody been doing a bad job at something and somebody's showing up and saying, you know what? You're really doing a terrible job. That has never helped. Never ever.

[55:20] Karin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shaming is not productive.

[55:24] Amy: Right.

[55:25] Karin: Yeah. And I think it's really a good idea for both parents and step parents to understand the concept of a loyalty bind. And if a kid is treating a step parent poorly, there's a good chance that that might be at the root of what's going on. And so to maybe do a little bit of investigating, talking about that and not immediately going to punishment.

[55:50] Amy: 100%. 100%. Yeah. It's very. It is a complex dynamic, and you'll never know, really, what's happening in the other house. And so approaching these kinds of things with curiosity and some of this comes back to self confidence and self compassion. Right. So the more you know yourself and the more strong you are in who you are and your position in your family, the easier this is going to be. Right. So one of our kids came back from grandma's house one day saying, grandma wants to bite me. And all of the adults that listened to this, we were like, this is. No, we know. We knew, right. We knew that this was not actually a thing, right. And. But it was over and over again, and we were looking around, so, like, we didn't, like you were saying, we didn't jump on it. We didn't punish anybody. We didn't do this. We were just like, what is going on? And then a long time later, like, weeks, months, whatever, we were all together, and we saw grandma, and she was like, ah, that's so good. I just want to eat you up. And I remember I was like, there it is. Right? There it is. And so, you know, and so that's a really innocent thing where we all had compassion and good understanding. But you can imagine that with just even the teeniest, tiniest bit of doubt, there's a huge space for misunderstanding. You know, why don't you have clothes for school? Why don't you have the lunchbox. Why didn't you send back the shoes? Why? Why did you send back with, you know, to the socks that don't match, you know, why did you, you know, all of that space that can be turned into massive space for argument or it can be allowed as the fabric of a family.

[57:43] Karin: Yeah. And that's why it's so good. If you can create a good relationship with.

[57:53] Amy: Yeah, it's not always possible.

[57:54] Karin: Yeah, it's not always possible.

[57:56] Amy: Yeah, it's not always possible. And that, you know, if you don't have a family where there's, like, there are families that are dealing with really, really serious things in them, and if you don't have that going on, consider that lucky. Like, if you're fighting about lunchboxes and stuff like that, that's great. You're in a good spot.

[58:12] Karin: Yeah.

[58:12] Amy: Yeah.

[58:13] Karin: Agreed.

[58:13] Amy: Agreed. So.

[58:18] Karin: How long, and I'm guessing that this is a question you get because it's a question I get, how long does it take for a step family to. I feel like a cohesive unit. Things are working.

[58:33] Amy: So, you know, the answer that they offer for this is, like, four to seven years is the thing. I think that it's a really, really weird answer because it also lines up with stress in marriage for first children in a family. Right. So, like, I don't know if it's actually blending that takes seven years or it takes seven years for parents to feel like adults, to feel like they know what the routine is with living with kids. I really, honestly don't know. I will say that for my. I think that blending is a weird word to use because it's. We don't actually become like a smoothie. Right. We don't mind everybody up. And it depends a little bit on what you do. So in my family, I very quickly added two more kids to the mix. I got, like, I was a stepmom and then we got married, and then I had kid one and I had kid two. And each one of those was like a reset on the I don't know what I'm doing button. Right. And so there was uncertainty and new dynamics we were doing in my house. We were doing preschool and college all at the same time. Like, there were days where I was like, I don't know if I'm coming or going. And so for me, it was. Right. It was probably closer to, like, ten years before I was like, oh, yes, I'm in it, and I know, and I know what I'm doing. But if somebody had told me, if somebody had told me, ten years, when I started, I would have been run for the hills. I would have run for the hills. And so I think that the more helpful thing to offer is that there were good parts. There were enough good parts of each day, let's say, hopefully, even though I wasn't keeping a log. And thanks for that. But, you know, every day, I was figuring out, like, am I still in it? Is this still what I want to do? And that makes people really nervous sometimes when I say that that was definitely what was going on, but I think that, for me, it was front of mind. It was like, yes, I'm still committed to this. I'm working on it every single day. And if there had been a time where it was like, this is not working anymore, and I can't do it, then it would have been a different story.

[01:00:56] Karin: Yeah. And I think that it's also. It's just. I'm going to say one of those coachy words again. It's a journey.

[01:01:03] Amy: It is a journey. So it's not like all of a.

[01:01:05] Karin: Sudden, you get to a destination, and I'm done.

[01:01:08] Amy: We're a family. We're a family, right? So the Gottman's did that famous study about bringing home baby, and that's where this is the thing that makes me wonder about the four to seven years. So they saw that people who had kids that were under the age of six, they all described that they were very dissatisfied with their family life, and so. And we say four to seven for blended family. And I'm like, I wonder how much of that is the adjustment to another person. Like, I just. I just wonder. I don't. I don't know. I don't know that there's. That there's also. In divorce research, they say five years. Like, when you look five years, most people are adjusted and back online. And so I don't know how much of it is related to the construct of the family and how much of it is a general transition. Like five years. Right. And we ask people when they get a job interview, like, where do you see yourself in five years? And everybody pretends that they have any idea when the truth is, none of us have any idea.

[01:02:01] Karin: Absolutely.

[01:02:02] Amy: Yeah.

[01:02:03] Karin: I love that. So if there's one thing you'd like people to walk away with after listening to this conversation, what would it be?

[01:02:11] Amy: You know, I don't know that I've done a convincing job of conveying this, but the thing that I would love for people to have a sense of is that they have all the power they need to create what they want. It sometimes really does not feel that way in the adult life, but we all have that within us to make the decisions and take the actions to get to the next phase. And I don't mean that as, like, a magical kind of thing, but there's no external force that ever shows up and is like, here's your answer. You know, it's always within us.

[01:02:48] Karin: Yeah, let that. And what role does love play in the work that you do?

[01:02:54] Amy: You know, I love this question. I don't have. Love is so on both things, love is probably the most important thing. But it starts with love for yourself, right? It's love for yourself that drives this, so many of these things. And we question ourselves with our family, have deep roots in what we think about ourselves, right? So it starts with that love for ourselves, love for the concept of the family that we have, love for the people that are around us, love for the institution of the family that we're creating, if that's important to us. And so it's also there. But then love sometimes gets translated into that, like, sort of romantic y feeling, and that. That, weirdly, is probably not enough in most cases.

[01:03:38] Karin: Yeah.

[01:03:38] Amy: Yeah.

[01:03:38] Karin: I have to agree.

[01:03:40] Amy: Yeah.

[01:03:41] Karin: And how can people learn more about you?

[01:03:44] Amy: So send me a smoke signal. No. My name is amy, and I call my company Amy says so because I'm very bossy. I'm actually not very bossy, but I think it's funny. So amysetso.com is my website. That's where you can find my podcast, which is the Amy says so show. That's where you can find my free resources. I have lots and lots of free tips. I have a book about my blending experience. The things I learned, I think, over 20 years. And you can find that [e-mail] and reach out. I'd love to help.

[01:04:18] Karin: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Amy, for being here and sharing all your wisdom.

[01:04:24] Amy: Thank you.

[01:04:28] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on love is us. If you like the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram, where I'm the love and connection coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today, because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be loved is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.